{"id":2002,"date":"2011-09-02T23:10:10","date_gmt":"2011-09-02T22:10:10","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/eltchat.com\/?p=2002"},"modified":"2011-09-02T23:10:10","modified_gmt":"2011-09-02T22:10:10","slug":"how-can-we-persuade-students-what-is-realistic-for-their-level-eltchat-summary-31082011","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/2011\/09\/02\/how-can-we-persuade-students-what-is-realistic-for-their-level-eltchat-summary-31082011\/","title":{"rendered":"How can we Persuade Students What is Realistic for their Level  #ELTchat Summary 31\/08\/2011"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><span style=\"color: #4f49b6;\"><em><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: 14px;\">This is the summary of the #ELTchat on 31st of August 20111 12:00 P.M. BST<\/span><\/strong><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #4f49b6;\"><em><strong>Moderators for this chat were @Marisa_C, @barbsaka (who had trouble with Tweetdeck and whose attention\/attendance was therefore intermittent), and @esolcourses (guesting \u0096 much to the relief of @Marisa_C, in view of @barbsaka&#8217;s problems).<\/strong><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n<h2><\/h2>\n<h2>Introduction<\/h2>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>This was widely agreed to be a difficult topic. There were many interleaved themes, and repeated suggestions to get back on-topic or questions that suggested that maybe we needed to get back on topic. The trouble was that an understanding of those themes was a pre-requisite to dealing adequately with the topic, and we couldn&#8217;t deal with the topic until&#8230; So, there were more questions than answers. There was wide agreement with @OUPELTGlobal&#8217;s<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I like the idea that these chats help define a teacher&#8217;s role in the classroom \u0096 whatever the topic has been<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>And @esolcourses summarized several of the themes neatly with her<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8230;Ideally, goal-setting should be done in partnership with teachers and learners &amp; not imposed by exams etc<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>This has turned turned out to be more &#8216;recorded higlights&#8217; than &#8216;summary&#8217;!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h2>Themes<\/h2>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>All these are interlinked in various ways, and many tweets could have fitted comfortably into two or more sections!<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Goals<\/li>\n<li>Motivation and incentives<\/li>\n<li>Portfolios<\/li>\n<li>Exams and Levels<\/li>\n<li>Real-life<\/li>\n<li>Teacher&#8217;s role<\/li>\n<li>Expectations<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3><\/h3>\n<h3>Goals<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:06 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">could someone say what we mean by &#8216;realistic&#8217; i.e. in terms of results, exams or general functional ability&#8230;? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">barbsaka<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:06 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Perhaps a working definition of &#8220;realistic&#8221;&#8211;something achievable, with work #eltchat (Other definitions?)<strong>Many RTs<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">theteacherjames<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:06 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">&#8230;and thus they can have a distorted view of what they can achieve in the correct time period. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">barbsaka<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:08 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 Yes, a realistic aim or outcome is something that students can achieve #eltchat<strong>Many RTs<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:11 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">have to set clear, measurable goals\u00a0 #eltchat<strong>Many RTs<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:13 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">convincing a St that they will b out of their depth @ higher levels can make difference between them sticking with it and giving up #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">lu_bodeman<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:14 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">I present results from their study period and we discuss outcomes. RT @ELTtech: @lu_bodeman how do you usually talk to these stdts? #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:15 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">good placement needs, interviews, diagnosis, sample work and time! #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:21 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">apart from placement, we also have to set clear, measurable goals for the course itself\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:22 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTExperiences I find helping ss understands their wkness and strngths and what they hve to do to achieve their goals is important #eltchat<strong>Many RTs<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:23 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">perhaps, have Ss write down expectations at start of course, discuss what&#8217;s realistic and try to adjust goals ?\u00a0 #eltchat<strong>Many RTs<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:25 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">then review goals regularly during the course\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:24 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">sometimes there&#8217;s a lack of transparency\/ criteria for moving sts up &#8211; esp with subjective elements.\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:26 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Does setting goals equate to convincing sts of how realistic their expectations are? #eltchat<strong>Uh oh \u0096 going off piste?<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">theteacherjames<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:29 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTtech @AlexandraKouk I think it&#8217;s essential. The sts &amp; the teacher need to share their goals, collaborate &amp; feedback on them. #ELTchat<strong>Many RTs<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Stylianou_E<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:32 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@AlexandraKouk writing goals on paper brings us closer to achieving them. It would definitely help Ss! I&#8217;ll try that, thanks:) #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:33 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Goal setting I think only works where there is no externally set goal such as in an exam or qualification? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">esolcourses<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:35 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 I&#8217;d say you can set goals for exam-based courses,\u00a0 provided that they are broadly mapped to the exam syllabus #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:35 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">I don&#8217;t mind an exam as a goal. I can then work with sts on what that goal means and what they need to do to achieve it.\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Stylianou_E<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:44 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@esolcourses @efl101 passing the exam can only be a short term goal, not the long term one\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Motivation<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">esolcourses<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:14 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Marisa_C\u00a0 @AlexandraKouk @OUPELTGlobal think s&#8217;s sometimes underestimate the amount of work they need to put in to progress #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">harrisonmike<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:14 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@lu_bodeman IME, placement tests are usually not enough. Oral interviews most necessary to ensure good placement. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:14 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">is it parent\/peer\/work pressure to get on with it and &#8220;finish&#8221; with English fast?\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:24 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@cherrymp It&#8217;s always been part of my classes &#8211; making the learning personal, to each student #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:31 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">On the other hand, I don&#8217;t see what is wrong with some challenge #ELTchat &#8211; Ss may rise to motivating challenges<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:32 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 I see what you mean, but at least they can see they&#8217;re making SOME progress and avoid getting too demotivated\u00a0 #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:34 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@AlexandraKouk True about motivation, but&#8230; motivating sts not the same as convincing them of realism of expectation? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:38 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">extrinsic motivation -&gt; problems that interfere w\/ intrinsic motivation. Increase\u00a0 intrinsic thro autonomy, competence, relatedness #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Portfolios<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:26 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Another very good idea is the use of student portfolios &#8211; print or online, they provide evidence of progress +\/- #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">JoHart<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:28 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Marisa_C #ELTchat Agree we use portfolios always in lit &amp; with ESl students who join us &#8216;cos no specialist ESL available in region<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:29 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@JoHart but portfolios too need clear descriptions of criteria &#8211; very often Ts unclear &#8211; why art of testing so difficult #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">lu_bodeman<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:30 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">They R wonderful. RT @ELTtech: @Marisa_C portfolios Hum din&#8217;t think of that b4. This is also gr8 #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">cherrymp<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:29 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Marisa_C @ELTExperiences portfolio is a wonderful idea &#8211; once again the T n the Ss need to be patient to see it evolve over time. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Stylianou_E<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:36 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">portfolios can help reflecting, SS can see what they achieved through time,and feel confident,even if little progress was made #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Exams<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:05 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">In my case all sts aim for a certain grade, but different goals are more realistic ie up or down &#8211; which causes upset<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:11 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Students on exam course expect to pass the exam, whether that is realistic or not, this is a systemic problem I think #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">barbsaka<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:12 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@JoHart So an idea of achievement not related to growth in skill but in passing grades \ud83d\ude42 #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">JoHart<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:18 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@barbsaka #ELTchat stdnts in literacy often just want to know what they need to do to &#8220;pass&#8221; hve found ESL stdnts less focussed on &#8220;pass&#8221; ..<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:19 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@JoHart good point, expectation often bound up in exam pass, not ability per se. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Mr_Schenk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:36 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 #ELTChat I agree. The extrinsic motivation of Passung the exam will always be strongest. Sadly&#8230;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:36 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@OUPELTGlobal passing exam = real goal, not just perceived goal. we have to take that on board. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">theteacherjames<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:37 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 I would hope the sts have other expectations for Eng beyond passing an exam. Hopeful? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:41 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@esolcourses agree totally but whether a st has realistic shot at exam or no is tricky, if no then why bother if focus is only exam #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:43 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 If the exam is good, then teaching to it should help the sts too. no? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:45 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Stylianou_E but for many sts it is THE goal for career etc and actual ability is a by-product &#8211; box-ticking world #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">BobK99<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:46 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">RT @AlexandraKouk: what is a good exam?\u00a0 #ELTChat ! Aha &#8211; maybe the key is to get the sts to buy into the specifics of the exam (not jst IT)<strong>Usually I&#8217;ve edited out retweets, but here the tweet says more than the RT (Bobk99\u00a0<em>finally<\/em>\u00a0getting the point!)<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:50 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">My university sts pass exams which give them a false sense of achievement &#8211; very seriously problem in my classes #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:51 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">many edu systems are exam-oriented, alas\u00a0 #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:57 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@cherrymp I know&#8230;. \ud83d\ude41\u00a0 but they have PASSED they have the Certif they just can&#8217;t communicate #ELTchat<strong>Appropriate last tweet for this section!<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Levels<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTExperiences<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:33 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">One question: is levels more important for groups of sts or one-to-one? If there&#8217;s a difference why? #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:33 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@OUPELTGlobal think it depends where they are headed, many are so focused on exam etc that interim steps are not important to them? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:33 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@OUPELTGlobal think it depends where they are headed, many are so focused on exam etc that interim steps are not important to them? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Mr_Schenk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:36 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 #ELTChat I agree. The extrinsic motivation of Passung the exam will always be strongest. Sadly&#8230;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">theteacherjames<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:37 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 I would hope the sts have other expectations for Eng beyond passing an exam. Hopeful? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTExperiences<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:38 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Englishonthenet Interesting. So are mixed classes suitable so stronger sts can help lower level sts? #ELTChat forgot the tag.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:41 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@esolcourses agree totally but whether a st has realistic shot at exam or no is tricky, if no then why bother if focus is only exam #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTExperiences<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:41 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTtech @Englishonthenet Are mixed ability classes any different to multi-level? #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTtech<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:42 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTExperiences @Englishonthenet I see a lot of benefit w lower level stdts multilevel classes They boost learning dramatically #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTtech<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:47 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTExperiences @Englishonthenet Maybe these r tech terms multilevel \/ mixed ability in ELT I guess no difference. I might be wrong #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:53 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@sandymillin can u send them up temporarily? seeing for themselves is probably most convincing method #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">sandymillin<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:54 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 theoretically I think we could send them up temporarily, but depends on space in classes &#8211; not enough for all #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:54 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@sandymillin I have had sts ask why teachers let them go up to next level when they weren&#8217;t ready &amp; where they crashed &amp; burned #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:56 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">a good level for a student is probably slightly above their comfort zone but logistics often get in the way of this \ud83d\ude41 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">sandymillin<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:57 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 agreed, but it depends on their level of confidence. an unconfident SS can benefit from a slightly lower level I think #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">3ty3<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:58 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Englishonthenet Totally agree that learner &#8220;levels&#8221; are inexact; however, bands can broadly be measured, as with IELTS #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Real-life<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">esolcourses<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:03 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 think it depends on the course, and what learners are hoping to achieve at the end of it #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:09 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">time and ability to commit exclusively, many students have competing demands on their time and attention #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTExperiences<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:20 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Englishonthenet I totally agree. Everyone learns and acquires languages differently depending on their experiences. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:39 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">The problem is general to other education fields &#8211; the notion that &#8220;I have attended sth&#8221; therefore I now know it? #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Teachers&#8217; role<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Englishonthenet<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:13 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">#eltchat Ss compare themselves with others, not taking into account variety of factors that determine progress<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">harrisonmike<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:19 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@AlexandraKouk Proper education abt language &amp; what learning it involves is needed 4 parents &amp; bosses. They wouldn&#8217;t listen tho =( #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:23 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">But to do tutorials and stocktaking\u00a0 course objectives must be transparent &amp; accessible to Ss #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:23 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">I think a good idea is the concept of tutorials &#8211; 1-2-1 if members of a class &#8211; stocktaking\u00a0 time #eltchat &#8211; how measuring up<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTExperiences<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:25 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@cherrymp @OUPELTGlobal but it is a useful exercise reacting to learners rather than dictating lessons. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:25 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">what&#8217;s realistic is also negotiated, not just my judgement as tchr.\u00a0 Sts commitment and motivation have heavy impact on outcome #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">cherrymp<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:26 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTExperiences @OUPELTGlobal reacting to the learners make it more spontaneous. Ts need to be open for that. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">cherrymp<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:28 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@ELTExperiences that&#8217;s the whole point rt &#8211; to capture the construct n operationalise it and retest it n d cycle goes on. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:30 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">I think learner autonomy and learning to learn are very important aspects of the EFL classroom &#8211; making ss more reposbonsible #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">theteacherjames<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:31 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 If they are guided in making them effectively, goal setting gives sts a realistic target to achieve. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:38 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Englishonthenet with\u00a0 1-2-1 there is much more room for negotiation\u00a0 and experimentation #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:42 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Marisa_C\u00a0 Not just sts &#8211; get some t&#8217;s who say &#8220;I&#8217;ve taught sth&#8221; so they should know it. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">esolcourses<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:44 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 by focusing on the syllabus in the broad sense, I mean aiming for the bases but also being willing to take a detour \ud83d\ude42 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:45 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">too often we teach coursebook \/ to exam \/ syllabus &#8211; rather than teaching the sts #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">parrpakala<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:47 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">i teach what I think the students need for settlement, and bring the modules\/assessments into it, like weaving #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Stylianou_E<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:49 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Marisa_C @Mr_Schenk in my context some teachers don&#8217;t care if their ss can communicate,as long as they pass the exam! So wrong. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:51 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@help4ielts why are we doing this? is 1 of best questions sts ask imho #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">help4ielts<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:51 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">worst question from sts halfway thro really creative lesson= &#8220;Why are we doing this?&#8221; (transl. why aren&#8217;t we\u00a0 doing exam practice) #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:52 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@help4ielts couldn&#8217;t it also mean the reverse? Why are we only doing exam practice and not really learning? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:54 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@OUPELTGlobal Good point &#8211; it&#8217;s a T&#8217;s job too to &#8216;translate&#8217; exam goals into real life skills #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h3>Expectations<\/h3>\n<table>\n<caption>Key tweets<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">theteacherjames<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:05 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">I think this problem can stem from the fact that the better a student gets, the harder it becomes for them to measure progress. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:06 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Ss expectations often too high &#8211; easily disappointed\u00a0 #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Stylianou_E<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:10 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">How do you deal with parents, when you think a student is not ready to move up a level or take an exam? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:12 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">should we touch on why ss have unrealistic expectations sometimes? #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:14 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">Sts have unrealistic expectations because of advertising, career pressure, peer\/parent pressure, over-estimation of own ability #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:16 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@barbsaka By defining the level thru independent means Ss don&#8217;t seem to have unrealistic ideas abt selves #ELTchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:16 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@esolcourses not only the amount of work, but they type of participation &#8211; shy students expecting to speak\u00a0 #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">ELTExperiences<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:19 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">I remember in Korea, the parents were demanding more from the teachers than the YLs. I suppose it depends on who you&#8217;re teaching. #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">esolcourses<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:21 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@OUPELTGlobal yes, agree that reluctance to join in with speaking activities can sometimes hold learners back #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">efl101<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:29 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@AlexandraKouk Just not sure if getting sts to measure their progress will convince them that they have an unrealistic expectation #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">cherrymp<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:31 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@efl101 @AlexandraKouk @OUPELTGlobal sometimes Ss may not be ready for self-evaluation. learner expectations might be different. #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">Marisa_C<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:50 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Mr_Schenk No it&#8217;s rather shoddy teaching #ELTchat but it&#8217;s what the &#8216;client&#8217; expects, pays for and wants<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:53 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@Marisa_C I think sts expectations and demands are part of the class and TTs can help sts adapt and achieve their own goals #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h2>Links<\/h2>\n<p>There were fewer links than usual (continuing the &#8216;more questions than answers&#8217; theme), but still a good dozen:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/6ytnHWG\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Free, Easy to use resources created by students for teachers<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/mNMl8UZ\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Language on the Move<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/o2CEwuP\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Going Paperless<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/nXyouft\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">EFCelt level test<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/hPcWCrM\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Reward placement tests<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/U0YGiO2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Best websites 4 Eng Lang Students<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/OO23kJa\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The 30 Goals Challenge<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/lKU2Sb8\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">10 hot tips to succeed at IELTS Reading Exam<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/5SbJUfl\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The best of being a Teacher &#8211; being a Learner<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/IL8zUED\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">What comes after the LMS? A Look at Curation<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/j.mp\/mQFTTR\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Coordinating against the clock<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/t.co\/4wRlmrn\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">30 Goals Challenge 2011<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>Goals<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>L&#8217;Envoi<\/h2>\n<p>A gift for a closing exchange:<\/p>\n<table>\n<caption>L&#8217;envoi<\/caption>\n<tbody>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">AlexandraKouk<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:44 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">what is a good exam?\u00a0 #ELTChat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"123\">OUPELTGlobal<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"76\">2:45 PM<\/td>\n<td valign=\"top\" width=\"378\">@AlexandraKouk seems like a good topic for an eltchat! #eltchat<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<h2>About the compiler<\/h2>\n<p>Bob Knowles (@BobK99) is a self- (that is, mostly,\u00a0<em>un-<\/em>) employed teacher of ELT and MFL (mostly EFL 1-2-1), retired from a life of technical writing. He moderates the\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/usingenglish.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">UsingEnglish<\/a>\u00a0forums and contributes resources to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.tes.co.uk\/teaching-resources\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">TESconnect<\/a>\u00a0(both as BobK\u00a0<em>tout sec<\/em>\u00a0\u0096 he came late to Twitter, by which time &#8216;@BobK&#8217; had been taken.)<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This is the summary of the #ELTchat on 31st of August 20111 12:00 P.M. BST &nbsp; Moderators for this chat were @Marisa_C, @barbsaka (who had trouble with Tweetdeck and whose attention\/attendance was therefore intermittent), and @esolcourses (guesting \u0096 much to the relief of @Marisa_C, in view of @barbsaka&#8217;s problems). Introduction &nbsp; This was widely agreed&hellip; <br \/> <a class=\"read-more\" href=\"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/2011\/09\/02\/how-can-we-persuade-students-what-is-realistic-for-their-level-eltchat-summary-31082011\/\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[12],"tags":[16,52,61,87],"class_list":["post-2002","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-summary","tag-assessment","tag-evaluation","tag-goal-setting","tag-motivation"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2002","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2002"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2002\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2002"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2002"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2002"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}