{"id":5054,"date":"2013-02-02T21:50:23","date_gmt":"2013-02-02T21:50:23","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/eltchat.org\/wordpress\/?p=5054"},"modified":"2013-02-02T21:50:23","modified_gmt":"2013-02-02T21:50:23","slug":"do-learners-learn-because-of-or-in-spite-of-the-teacher-an-eltchat-summary-051212","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/2013\/02\/02\/do-learners-learn-because-of-or-in-spite-of-the-teacher-an-eltchat-summary-051212\/","title":{"rendered":"Do learners learn because of, or in spite of, the teacher? – An #ELTchat summary (05\/12\/12)"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"mystery<\/a><\/h2>\n

<\/h2>\n

Do learners learn because of, or in spite of, the teacher?<\/b><\/h2>\n

<\/h2>\n

This was the question put to the #ELTchatters on Wednesday 5th<\/sup>\u00a0December, in the second session of the day.<\/p>\n

What an interesting question- and did we find the answer? Not exactly! But we had lots of conversation around the subject.\u00a0 We also agreed that if the latter was the case we would all be in the market for a new job!<\/p>\n

The question came about after @pjgallantry\u00a0noticed that some students made progress, regardless of bad teachers or unsuitable techniques, and wondered what the secret could be. @ljp agreed that it was , thankfully, true in some cases! @shaznosel\u00a0took it a step further and asked what made some students much more effective learners than others.<\/p>\n

@cioccas\u00a0thought that there was no answer and that because of\u00a0and<\/i>\u00a0in spite of the teacher was a realistic way to look at what happens in a classroom.<\/p>\n

@naomishema\u00a0thought that part of a teacher\u2019s job was getting students to sit down and work and that even not very good teachers are able to do that.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Could it be a question of motivation?<\/b><\/h2>\n

 <\/p>\n

@vmorgana\u00a0asked how strongly motivation can influence language acquisition.<\/p>\n

@haniehak\u00a0believed that the teacher provides persuasive motivation and helps the students to become autonomous learners.<\/p>\n

@TailormadeEng\u00a0and\u00a0@DRichW\u00a0both agreed and said that it fit nicely with Krashen\u2019s ideas about input.<\/p>\n

It was mentioned that\u00a0motivation can come from both positive and negative sources, making students decide to succeed at all costs.\u00a0@MoAmericanoid\u00a0thought that teachers were in a strong position to add positive motivation to students.<\/p>\n

It was suggested, tongue-in-cheek, that students might learn\u00a0to<\/i>\u00a0spite of the teacher @mattledding<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Do you ever feel that what your learners are learning doesn’t really require a teacher? Could students just teach themselves<\/b>?<\/h2>\n

 <\/p>\n

@shaznosel\u00a0offered us a link to info about Sugata Mitra\u2019s \u2018Hole in the Wall\u2019 experiment\u00a0http:\/\/t.co\/8HibhOt4<\/b><\/a>\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/b>which many of us had already heard of, and which, according to @theteacherjames, could have serious repercussions for us.<\/p>\n

It was agreed that\u00a0students still need interaction to bring language to life, even though they can learn some things independently. The\u00a0classroom<\/i>\u00a0is the place where interaction happens; is the teacher necessary?<\/p>\n

Both feedback and interaction are needed.<\/p>\n

Matt\u00a0agreed about this but said that his interest lay in developing learner autonomy and feedback and interaction between the students.<\/p>\n

@KerrCarolyn\u00a0asked: How much of our job is to help SS become able to learn alone whenever they can?<\/p>\n

However, some students need guidance about how to learn.<\/p>\n

This was reiterated by\u00a0@JoHart, who said: some students need help to develop independent learning skills and need scaffolding and guidance. Not everyone has the self-discipline to learn at home. The teacher is then necessary to motivate and guide the students. Teaching self-editing and self-evaluating skills increase confidence and allow them to become less dependent on the teacher.<\/p>\n

@KerrCarolyn\u00a0quoted C Rogers (1961): We cannot teach another person directly, we can only facilitate their learning<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

So, what is the role of the teacher?<\/b><\/h2>\n

\u00a0\"Reading<\/a>
\nJudy Baxter<\/a> via Compfight<\/a><\/small><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

@theteacherjames\u00a0suggested that\u00a0our job is to create the conditions for learning; which some need more than others.<\/p>\n

@Sharonzspace: maybe we help with the emotional scaffolding that maximises learning.<\/p>\n

@shaznosel: we teach them culture<\/p>\n

@TailormadeEng: teacher\u2019s job could be to ensure exposure to language. Teacher has a major role as a facilitator.<\/p>\n

@naomishema: and part coach! JoHart: especially with adults as they are often less confident than the young. It was said that adults need coaching more than the children at school, as they have more demands on their time and need\u00a0 the discipline of having a teacher, set times for lessons, and someone with expectations from them.<\/p>\n

@SueAnnan\u00a0suggested that teachers should demand more of the students than the students might of themselves, and are suitably placed in a classroom to do that.<\/p>\n

@MrChrisJWilson\u00a0mentioned a study which showed that error correction had no noticeable effect, and\u00a0James\u00a0thought it would be interesting to compare the effect of teacher pointing out errors, against students being led to discover the errors for themselves.<\/p>\n

Teachers know how to adapt to circumstances and can be flexible enough to suit the learning needs of the students.<\/p>\n

@TailormadeEng: skilful teachers know when to switch between the almost endless roles we are required to inhabit.<\/p>\n

@theteacherjames\u00a0had the last word here: ultimately, the work has to be done by the student, without that they\u2019ll achieve nothing.<\/p>\n

\n

\n

 <\/p>\n

Does the teacher have more or less of a role on online courses or f2f?<\/b><\/h2>\n

 <\/p>\n

This would appear to depend on whether the online course is synchronous or asynchronous. In the latter case, the teacher is automatically more distanced from the students.<\/p>\n

Perhaps the fact that so many courses exist online, yet students still book face-to-face courses, suggests that there are many people who still consider a teacher necessary.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

Have you ever had one of those students who never seem to do a thing in class, do little, if any homework, but still seem better other students?<\/b><\/h2>\n

 <\/p>\n

This situation was one with which many of us were familiar, as well as the alternative where students make no progress, regardless of the best attention of the teacher.<\/p>\n

These students upset the industrious, but less able, students in their classes. However, they do not generally continue to make progress at the same speed as those who engage and study, and \u2018drop off\u2019 when they reach a certain level. Naomi mentioned a student she is teaching who appears to have a natural aptitude for English, although the student is mentally challenged in other areas, and asks whether a \u2018talent for languages\u2019 could explain the apparent success some people have to learn languages easily.<\/p>\n

There are also the students who expect the learning to come from the teacher. The question was raised about whether this was a phenomenon more common to private schools, or even outside the system, when teachers are paid directly by their students. Do the students have the right to learn nothing and make no progress? The consensus was that they\u00a0did<\/i>\u00a0have the right, but that it was unhelpful in a system where the teachers were graded on the development of their students.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Are classrooms, in fact, effective learning spaces?<\/b><\/h2>\n

 <\/p>\n

This could depend on how flexible the teacher is allowed to be in class.<\/p>\n

@Cioccas\u00a0mentioned a 1-2-1 student who didn\u2019t cope well in the classroom, but blossomed under private tutelage. She was an exceptionally bright student who was hindered rather than helped by the group. Some students prefer to work in a 1-2-1 environment, and some are motivated enough to work alone. This caused a division in the group: those who prefer to have a teacher and those who don\u2019t think it always necessary. Taking on ownership of, and responsibility for, one\u2019s own progress may help develop independent learning skills, which is something worth considering. It was suggested that spoon-feeding answers raised a class of students who became over-reliant on the teacher; to a certain extent the \u2018Foie Gras\u2019 system referred to byCarolyn\u00a0which she considered to be unhealthy.<\/p>\n

There was a study undertaken which suggests that students who take classes progress faster, although\u00a0KerrCarolyn,\u00a0wearing her cynic’s hat, suggested that there are studies which will support or refute anything<\/p>\n

I, personally, have taught students who learned English by listening to pop music in the 1960s and \u201870s. They were able to use the language at intermediate level without any other input.<\/p>\n

\"Empty<\/a>
\nPatricia Glogowski<\/a> via Compfight<\/a><\/small><\/p>\n

\n

So, is there anything that a student\u00a0cannot<\/i>\u00a0learn without a teacher?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

As much of what we traditionally do in class can be found on the internet today, if students are self \u2013motivated they will be able to do a great deal without a teacher, including working on pronunciation, which was always seen as the preserve of the teacher in the past!\u00a0 However, some people need more help.<\/p>\n

As\u00a0Carolyn\u00a0said: It\u2019s like a driver without a map. You can drive but it takes longer to get somewhere without the directions. And some people need maps more than others! Another metaphor was the coach one- we kept returning to the coach idea during the discussion; Andy Murray can play tennis without his coach, but is better with his guidance.<\/p>\n

Lesley\u00a0said that she was always striving for the moment when students are learning, and you realise you aren\u2019t teaching. It is not something which can be planned, or forced in any way, but it is a magic moment. One hopes that it shared equally by the teacher and the studentJ\u00a0\u00a0Paulsuggested that ultimately we need to make students believe that they have learned All By Themselves- without any effort from the teacher, which was seen as a goal worth pursuing.<\/p>\n

These moments facilitate latent learning, where students engage, process and internalise information. The question is, how can we harness those moments and \u2018sprinkle the magic learning dust on the others?<\/p>\n

Neuroscience says that emotions are the key to higher processing skills. Teachers generally use some psychological strategies with their students, even though we do not have formal qualifications. At present, there is no App which is able to do this, necessitating the teacher for some years hence\u00a0J\u00a0http:\/\/t.co\/50hxNUvM<\/b><\/a>\u00a0Here’s a post on emotional connections with reluctant students<\/p>\n

Passion is very important in all areas of life, and James provided a link to a\u00a0 blog post which he wrote about helping students find their passion and using it to learn:\u00a0http:\/\/t.co\/qJz5ak1V<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/h2>\n

A<\/b>nd finally, a bit of seasonal frivolity:\u00a0<\/b><\/h2>\n

<\/h2>\n

It was suggested that we call ourselves coaches, we could then join an entirely new industry- and would be able to increase our income! Carolyn suggested that we become EFL Learning Facilitators, or Elfs. BUT- these initials are used by E-learning facilitators, and English as a Lingua Franca, so becoming Santa\u2019s little helpers could lead to confusion. An alternative of English Language Knowers was proposed \u2013 ELKs, also fairly apt for the time of yearJ<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Do learners learn because of, or in spite of, the teacher? This was the question put to the #ELTchatters on Wednesday 5th\u00a0December, in the second session of the day. What an interesting question- and did we find the answer? Not exactly! But we had lots of conversation around the subject.\u00a0 We also agreed that if…
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