{"id":8905,"date":"2025-03-30T19:35:02","date_gmt":"2025-03-30T19:35:02","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/?p=8905"},"modified":"2025-03-30T19:55:44","modified_gmt":"2025-03-30T19:55:44","slug":"demand-high-and-dogme-brothers-in-arms-or-distant-cousins","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/2025\/03\/30\/demand-high-and-dogme-brothers-in-arms-or-distant-cousins\/","title":{"rendered":"Demand High and Dogme \u2013 brothers in arms or distant\u00a0cousins?"},"content":{"rendered":"\r\n
Reposted from the amodisco<\/a> blog<\/h6>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

By\u00a0carolyn kerr<\/a>\u00a0\u00b6\u00a0Posted in\u00a0ELT<\/a>\u00a0\u00b6\u00a0Tagged\u00a0DHelt<\/a>,\u00a0Dogme<\/a>,\u00a0ELT Methodology<\/a>,\u00a0ELTChat<\/a>\u00a0\u00b6\u00a04 Comments<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

This post is a summary of the ELTChat of January 16 2013 :<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n

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\"Diapositive1\"<\/a><\/figure>\r\n<\/div>\r\n\r\n\r\n

So what there is to be up in arms about?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"Why<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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The ethos behind it is that ELT has become too lightweight, too frivolous and not rigorous enough, as I understand it. @theteacherjames<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

By emphasizing personalization, DHT is a critique of the \u2018environment-building\u2019 ethos of communicative language teaching @baanderson<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Teachers doing just for the sake of doing @rosemerebard<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

In this\u00a0video<\/a>, part of a set of materials for a\u00a0reflective seminar<\/a>\u00a0created by Scrivener and Underhill you hear Adrian give his \u2018why\u2019 :\u00a0<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n

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\"Clip<\/a><\/figure>\r\n<\/div>\r\n\r\n\r\n

And although #ELTChat could cite many examples where this was not the case, it was agreed that :<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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having seen lessons on 4 continents last years albeit mainly PLSes rather than mainstream I\u2019ll\u00a0stand by my \u2018I agree\u2019 @Shaunwilden<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

and further that<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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Maybe in many places teaching IS about students getting their msg across, even in poor language. DH is reaction to it @Natashetta<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

and even more<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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I\u2019d say there\u2019s a culture in FE that militates against Demand High: instead it requires Just Enough @pjgallantry<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"WHat<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

ELTChat\u2019s reflections included:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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It seems to me it\u2019s about asking more from your students, pushing them further & asking them to work harder @theteacherjames<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

DHT is just probing a bit more and exploiting opportunities for deeper learning & LA @Marisa_C<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

And importantly it is method agnostic, it is a practice that can be applied however you choose to teach:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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it\u2019s about demanding \u201ca better quality\u201d no matter what approach or method you choose @natashetta<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

DH is \u201cnot anti any method, not anti-Communicative Approach, not anti-dogme, not anti-Task Based Learning<\/a>.\u201d @natashetta<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Confirmation that is not a methodology, an approach or a procedure, from the Godfather of DH itself, Jim Scrivener:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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DH isn\u2019t a \u201cmethod\u201d. It\u2019s a small (but possibly needed) course correction. A tweak. @jimscriv<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

a correction of what?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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its an anti plateau device \u2013 its pushing that bit harder, driving the learning forward @KerrCarolyn<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"wag<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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It\u2019s anti letting the tail wag the dog in my opinion @dalecoulter<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

What does Demand High look like in practice? \u00a0According to #ELTChat:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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I would say the DHT comes alive mostly in feedback or exploitation not while Ss are collaborating Marisa_C<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

actually, my take is that DHELT means interrupting the Ss collaboration to make it more worthwhile @Imadruid<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Feedback (not unearned praise) and intervention seem central to Scrivener\u2019s view of DHT @idc74<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

I think its more like\u00a0turning a group lesson into 121<\/a>, with a focus on each individual @KerrCarolyn<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"What<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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Dogme \u2013 materials light, free from course-book driven learning, focus on emergent language and conversation driven, in brief @DaleCoulter<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

letting it all come from the learner and exploiting opportunities for learning as they arise @Marisa_C<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"Shared<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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exploiting opportunities as thy arise seems to be where the 2 have something in \u00a0common \u2013 utilising\u00a0\u00a0\u2018online\u2019 teaching skills @dalecoulter<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Breaking free of routine and automated teaching @idc74<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

For some they are inseparable:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n

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\"Can<\/a><\/figure>\r\n<\/div>\r\n\r\n\r\n
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Dogme without DHELT is like Pedigree Chum without the can opener @Imadruid<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

for others not so<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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can a lesson be #Dogme and not #DHElt ..yup. can it be #DHElt and not #Dogme\u2026yup @MrChrisJWilson<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"the<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

One of the \u2018greyer\u2019 areas seems to around \u2018learner or learning\u2019 centric:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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@jimscriv would say that DHELT is more learnING centred than learnER centred? @Imadruid<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

and indeed, he confirmed:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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Being learning centred means you try to find just what is learner doing to do the task. You then help on to next step @jimscriv<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

So a kind of +1 zone approach? and personalised to that learner? @KerrCarolyn<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Yes very much so. The demand is a DOABLE demand for that individual at that moment ie a focused challenge @jimscriv<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

doable\u2026with help? Similar to Vygotsky\u2019s ZPD \u2013 apprentice and expert navigate the waters of learning? @Imadruid<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

yes and the teacher does not abdicate his\/her duty to facilitate learning @jimscriv<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

And hence the \u2018learning\u2019 centeredness? \u2018Facilitating Learning\u2019 is the driving force? \u2013 Spot on! @jimscriv<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

The \u2018Dogmeticians\u2019 of this world could now jump in and say: \u2018yes but this is exactly what the \u2018scaffolding\u2019 of Dogme is all about\u2019, and they\u2019d be right, but the fundamental difference is a \u2018material\u2019 one:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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Getting away from a slight over concern about task, material, fun etc and focussing on the learning @jimscriv<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Indeed, the \u2018material\u2019 question of \u2018To coursebook or not to coursebook\u2019 is key:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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The quote put a perspective that coursebook is not the problem,but how how we use coursebook. from what I read, they are in favor of it, just there is more to it @rosemerebard<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"Material<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Well, no. And not just because Dogme isn\u2019t entirely anti- coursebooks, as per\u00a0Dogme and the Coursebook<\/a>. There are also structural differences\u00a0:\u00a0Dogme has a method, and techniques (as described in\u00a0Teaching Unplugged<\/a>\u00a0\u00a0and in the book of the same name).\u00a0Demand High, however, is not a method. In fact, you can easily argue that \u2018Demand High\u2019 is both method\u00a0and<\/strong>\u00a0subject agnostic: it could be applied to the teaching of any subject or skill: An engineering professor or high school physics teacher could ask themselves the four key questions of Demand High<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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Are our learners capable of more, much more?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Have the tasks and techniques we use in class become rituals and ends in themselves?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

How can we stop \u201ccovering material\u201d and start focusing on the potential for deep learning?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

What small tweaks and adjustments can we make to shift the whole focus of our teaching towards getting that engine of learning going?<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

And aim towards the Demand high outcomes. This is possible precisely because it is method agnostic: it is a way of reflecting that encourages reflection on and adjustment of the techniques already being used by that particular teacher.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\"Common<\/a><\/figure>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Dogme sits in the evolutionary line of Second Language Acquisition, it\u2019s techniques could be applied to the Acquisition of any language. For me it\u2019s immediate evolutionary predecessor was\u00a0Community Language Learning<\/a>\u00a0and that family of methods, where the learners\u2019 experience of the langauge is at the core.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Demand\u00a0 High sits in the evolutionary line of Modern Educational theory, it\u2019s predecessors are\u00a0Reflective Practice<\/a>\u00a0 and stretch back to the thinking of\u00a0John Dewey<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

So if we take CLL as being the mother of Dogme, who is the father\u00a0? Well it can\u2019t be Scott Thornbury, since he had taken a\u00a0\u2018vow of chastity\u2019<\/a>, but he is clearly the Godfather, guiding Dogme to adulthood. But Scott does give us the clue to its genealogy by referring back to an article which fundamentally influenced his thinking, an article on working in a materials light classroom.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

The author\u00a0of this\u00a0important article<\/a>? None other than Adrian Underhill.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

Suddenly the family resemblance becomes clearer. Whether directly or indirectly, Adrian Underhill is the common denominator.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

\u00a0<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

@Mk_elt #eltpics \u2013 who\u2019s been running naked in the woods?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

It makes me wonder who exactly was \u2018running naked in the woods\u2019 and what exactly they were up to? (I can\u2019t help but wonder if this famous \u2018tongue in cheek\u2019 \u00a0quote was referring to \u2018nakedness\u2019 as an antidote to \u2018chastity\u2019) \u00a0In any case the offspring are two different but enriching ideas that are pushing Education and Language Acquisition forward:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

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In my opinion DHT is as valuable as Dogme or any other approach that can enhance learning effectively @toulasklavou<\/p>\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n

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  1. phil wade<\/a>\u00a0says:
  2. Hi Carolyn.Interesting and very cool looking post. I\u2019m not sure about one poin though:Dogme has a method, and techniques (as described in Teaching Unplugged and in the book of the same name)This is up for dispute. In theory, I think it\u2019s an idea\/feeling\/philosophy but due to that book and other blogs and articles a \u2018dogme method\u2019 seems to have emerged. One which you can just from from start to finish and say \u201cI did a dogme lesson\u201d. I know of people who just repeated an exercise form the back of the book and then said \u201cI tried it and it wasn\u2019t anything unusual\u201d. Others repeated recorded lessons activity by activity.For me, this is a bit daft. It\u2019s like trying to coy an improvised piece of music. That, I honestly feel, is the heart of dogme. It\u2019s never the same because the students aren\u2019t. A full dogme lesson would have no materials or set planning and so not follow the typical \u2018talk,topic emerges, language focus,language work, practice, talk more\u2019 format.\u00a0What I think DH and dogme do have in common is that both say \u201cwe are too nice\u201d and possibly highlight that our TEFL method has had its day. Maybe it\u2019s time to put the easy activities and games away and learn to teach in a more serious and mentally engaging way.I\u2019d support this as I\u2019m a bit tired of taking on classes that either think EFL lessons will be a riot and taught by some clown or actually have had a native or foreign teacher who taught like that. The first because they believed that\u2019s what they should do but the second because they were taught to do so.Reply<\/a><\/li>\r\n<\/ol>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

     <\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n

    \"\"<\/figure>\r\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    Reposted from the amodisco blog By\u00a0carolyn kerr\u00a0\u00b6\u00a0Posted in\u00a0ELT\u00a0\u00b6\u00a0Tagged\u00a0DHelt,\u00a0Dogme,\u00a0ELT Methodology,\u00a0ELTChat\u00a0\u00b6\u00a04 Comments This post is a summary of the ELTChat of January 16 2013 : So what there is to be up in arms about? The ethos behind it is that ELT has become too lightweight, too frivolous and not rigorous enough, as I understand it. @theteacherjames…
    Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[12,1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-8905","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-summary","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8905","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=8905"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8905\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":8911,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8905\/revisions\/8911"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=8905"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=8905"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/eltchat.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=8905"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}