How do you deal with fossilized errors and help students improve their accuracy? #ELTchat Transcript 23/02/2011

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How do you deal with fossilized errors and help students improve their accuracy? #ELTchat Transcript 23/02/2011

This is the transcript of the first #ELTchat on dealing with fossilized errors on 23/02/2011

11:59 am englishraven: Welcome to #ELTChat everyone! I’m co-moderating with @barbsaka tonight, hope you’ll join us to chat about ‘fossilized errors’
11:59 am barbsaka: RT @juanalejandro82: I only say to my followers: I’m sorry, it’s Wednesday and it’s time for #ELTChat
12:00 pm barbsaka: And I’m here with @englishraven Happy to get started with tonight’s chat #eltchat
12:00 pm AlexandraKouk: … and we have lift-off! #ELTchat
12:01 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: Welcome to #ELTChat everyone! I’m co-moderating with @barbsaka tonight, hope you’ll join us to chat about ‘fossilized errors’
12:01 pm englishraven: So what is everyone’s understanding of a ‘fossilized error’? #ELTChat
12:01 pm du_siemens: Shall we start by asking what fossilized errors are? #ELTChat
12:01 pm sandymillin: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #eltchat – How do we deal with fossilized errors?
12:01 pm barbsaka: And I forgot the hashtag ๐Ÿ™‚ but Jason asked the same question so all good #eltchat
12:02 pm michelleworgan: I would say that it is really a mistake rather than an error – stds know it’s wrong but keep making it #eltchat
12:02 pm janetbianchini: Hi all and moderators @englishraven @barbsaka We have lift off! Great!! #ELTchat
12:02 pm englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: I would say that it is really a mistake rather than an error – stds know it’s wrong but keep making it #eltchat
12:02 pm barbsaka: RT @michelleworgan: I would say that it is really a mistake rather than an error – stds know it’s wrong but keep making it #eltchat
12:02 pm EnglAdvantage: fossilized error is when the error is a force of habit, perhaps? Students don’t know they are making a mistake anymore. #ELTChat
12:03 pm LUZBEGO: RT @englishraven: Welcome to #ELTChat everyone! I’m co-moderating with @barbsaka tonight, hope you’ll join us to chat about ‘fossilized errors’
12:03 pm LUZBEGO: RT @englishraven: So what is everyone’s understanding of a ‘fossilized error’? #ELTChat
12:03 pm TwitConfessor: RT @juanalejandro82:#ELTChat fossilized errors… I must confess I had to read what it washttp://twlv.net/30pJkD
12:03 pm sandymillin: @englishraven To me, a fossilized error is a problem with pronunciation, grammar, vocab which SS learnt wrong & now needs 2 change #eltchat
12:03 pm janetbianchini: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #eltchat – How do we deal with fossilized errors?
12:03 pm bcnpaul1: for the next hour my tweets dedicated to #eltchat fossilized errors
12:03 pm englishraven: @michelleworgan I quite like your distinction between ‘mistake’ and ‘error’ there… it’s a useful one in some ways. #ELTChat
12:03 pm englishraven: RT @EnglAdvantage: fossilized error is when the error is a force of habit, perhaps? Students don’t know they are making a mistake anymore. #ELTChat
12:03 pm barbsaka: When you focus on the error, students can make the correction, but on their own, the same errors persist #eltchat
12:03 pm janetbianchini: #ELTChat It’s a mistake that keeps recurring despite constant correction
12:03 pm michelleworgan: They are not aware at the time, but often they make mistakes orally but not in written production #eltchat
12:04 pm du_siemens: Do they always know they’re making a mistake? Guess not. #ELTChat
12:04 pm englishraven: RT @sandymillin: @englishraven To me, a fossilized error is a problem with pronunciation, grammar, vocab which SS learnt wrong & now needs 2 change #eltchat
12:04 pm AlexandraKouk: when they’re completely unaware that they’ve made a mistake / sure they’ve made none? #ELTchat
12:04 pm du_siemens: @michelleworgan Good point. #ELTChat
12:04 pm englishraven: RT @AlexandraKouk: when they’re completely unaware that they’ve made a mistake / sure they’ve made none? #ELTchat
12:04 pm englishraven: RT @du_siemens: Do they always know they’re making a mistake? Guess not. #ELTChat
12:04 pm englishraven: RT @janetbianchini: #ELTChat It’s a mistake that keeps recurring despite constant correction
12:04 pm JoeMcVeigh: I find these errors most often occur in grammar and pronunciation. Other areas? #ELTchat
12:04 pm janetbianchini: Even fluent speakers can have fossilised errors #ELTChat
12:05 pm englishraven: RT @barbsaka: When you focus on the error, students can make the correction, but on their own, the same errors persist #eltchat
12:05 pm michelleworgan: RT @janetbianchini: #ELTChat It’s a mistake that keeps recurring despite constant correction|yes, good definition!
12:05 pm bcnpaul1: fossilized not just in the case of one student but repeated by many speakers of a particular lang. inbuilt L1 interference #eltchat
12:05 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @janetbianchini: Even fluent speakers can have fossilised errors #ELTChat > Definitely.
12:05 pm englishraven: RT @JoeMcVeigh: I find these errors most often occur in grammar and pronunciation. Other areas? #ELTchat
12:05 pm JoshSRound: RT @JoeMcVeigh: I find these errors most often occur in grammar and pronunciation. Other areas? #ELTchat
12:05 pm barbsaka: I’m curious when all y’all consider the mistake to have become fossilized #eltchat
12:05 pm KarenInGreece: RT @michelleworgan: They are not aware at the time, but often they make mistakes orally but not in written production #eltchat
12:05 pm juanalejandro82: #ELTChat well, if we have Ss that know English, it’s a common mistake; if they are learning, it’s an error. am I right?
12:05 pm JoshSRound: RT @janetbianchini: Even fluent speakers can have fossilised errors #ELTchat
12:05 pm JoeMcVeigh: @bcnpaul1 I think more of individuals rather than group errors. Examples? #ELTchat
12:06 pm sandymillin: @JoeMcVeigh #eltchat Also includes word forms e.g. spectaculous from all of my CAE students multiple times! (for spectacular)
12:06 pm jacekbetleja: #eltchat
12:06 pm stopspanglish: #ELTChat – (said only half-jokingly): the mistake that makes you want to scream, “WHY are you still saying/writing that after X years???”
12:06 pm englishraven: @barbsaka Yes, persistent appears to be a criteria for calling an error fossilized… #ELTChat
12:06 pm englishraven: RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat – (said only half-jokingly): the mistake that makes you want to scream, “WHY are you still saying/writing that after X years???”
12:06 pm Raquel_EFL: rt @michelleworgan They are not aware at the time, but often they make mistakes orally but not in written production #eltchat > agree!
12:06 pm sandymillin: RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat – (said only half-jokingly): the mistake that makes you want to scream, “WHY are you still saying/writing that after X years???”
12:06 pm du_siemens: RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat – (said only half-jokingly): the mistake that makes you want to scream, “WHY are you still saying/writing that after X years???”
12:06 pm michelleworgan: Also things like false friends can be consistent errors despite being told again and again #eltchat
12:06 pm EnglAdvantage: @barbsaka:when mistake to have become fossilized #eltchat > as said when repeat correction doesn’t help #ELTChat
12:06 pm juanalejandro82: RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat – (said only half-jokingly): the mistake that makes you want to scream, “WHY are you still saying/writing that after X years???”
12:06 pm mmgrinberg: Hello #eltchat, my connection is very unstable today, but I’ll do my best!
12:07 pm barbsaka: @mmgrinberg We’re happy to have you, even unstably :-0 #eltchat
12:07 pm JoeMcVeigh: @sandymillin Maybe they are just being creative. My native speaker TESOL students say “ginormous” ! #ELTchat ๐Ÿ™‚
12:07 pm englishraven: It does intrigue me, because some gaps and developing areas of language are called ‘fossilized’ errors ‘coz Ts assume it is known. #ELTChat
12:07 pm juanalejandro82: @karenmoka you must come and join us at #ELTChat
12:07 pm Marisa_C: #ELTchat hello and sorry to be late to my co-moderators @barbsaka and @englishraven Just came out of class
12:07 pm michelleworgan: when advanced stds make the same mistakes as they did at lower levels – they are fossilized #eltchat
12:07 pm du_siemens: Do posters help ss overcome their fossilized errors? I’ve tried it with one group of mine and the result was quite interesting. #ELTChat
12:07 pm barbsaka: Start the party! RT @michelleworgan: when advanced stds make the same mistakes as they did at lower levels – they are fossilized #eltchat
12:07 pm englishraven: @Marisa_C Great to have our other moderator on board! #ELTChat
12:08 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @JoshSRound: RT @janetbianchini: Even fluent speakers can have fossilised errors #ELTchat
12:08 pm stopspanglish: #ELTChat – also, mistakes that non-native teachers may not “hear” after a certain number of years teaching English at a high level.
12:08 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @du_siemens:I’ve tried it with one group of mine and the result was quite interesting. #ELTChat > do tell
12:08 pm englishraven: @Marisa_C Bring you up to speed, we’re trying to define and describe ‘fossilized error’ to start with… #ELTChat
12:08 pm juanalejandro82: RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat – also, mistakes that non-native teachers may not “hear” after a certain number of years teaching English at a high level.
12:08 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven Need to catch up with the stream of conversation #ELTChat
12:08 pm Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: @Marisa_C Bring you up to speed, we’re trying to define and describe ‘fossilized error’ to start with… #ELTChat
12:08 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @bcnpaul1: fossilized not just in the case of one student but repeated by many speakers of a particular lang. inbuilt L1 interference #eltchat
12:08 pm sandymillin: @du_siemens How did you use the posters? #ELTChat
12:09 pm michelleworgan: @stopspanglish Even with NESTs after years you don’t notice some errors with vocab or intonation #eltchat
12:09 pm JoshSRound: Prob w such errors is how best to deal with, when fossilization is evident in 1 or 2 learners in a grp? much easier in 1-2-1s #ELTchat
12:09 pm Marisa_C: Best definition so far? #ELTchat pls RT it for me ๐Ÿ™‚
12:09 pm barbsaka: Example: my YLs say “What spell?” consistently but I don’t consider it fossilized because they’re young and there’s still hope ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:09 pm bcnpaul1: @JoeMcVeigh I’m thinking of errors typical to, say native eng.spkrs learning spanish (pron & grammar) inbuilt & v.diff to lose #eltchat
12:09 pm du_siemens: My ss would keep saying “I have 20 years old” despite my constant correction. What did I do? I wrote it on a poster… #ELTChat
12:09 pm mmgrinberg: ‘Fossilized’ actually means there’s little you can do about it, that’s what Rod Ellis says #eltchat
12:09 pm englishraven: For people who want to delve into this more, I recommend reading up on terms ‘interlanguage’ and ‘(free) variation’ #ELTChat
12:09 pm Marisa_C: Please friends of #ELTchat do not post irrelevant updates to our topic during our chat
12:09 pm janetbianchini: Deciding what and when to correct – interesting post to read for laterย http://tinyurl.com/69thnnp#ELTChat
12:09 pm sandymillin: @mmgrinberg We should just stop #eltchat now then! ๐Ÿ˜‰
12:10 pm du_siemens: crossed it out and wrote the correct sentence just below it. They always referred to it whenever they talked about their ages. #ELTChat
12:10 pm AlexandraKouk: perhaps when Ss have no motivation to improve, stop paying attention to correction? #ELTchat
12:10 pm bcnpaul1: RT @mmgrinberg: ‘Fossilized’ actually means there’s little you can do about it, that’s what Rod Ellis says #eltchat
12:10 pm JoshSRound: @mmgrinberg very frustrating for learners if nothing can be done!! #ELTchat
12:10 pm michelleworgan: I don’t consider YL mistakes to be fossilized cos they will prob correct those errors as they get older #eltchat
12:10 pm englishraven: RT @janetbianchini: Deciding what and when to correct – interesting post to read for laterhttp://tinyurl.com/69thnnp #ELTChat
12:10 pm englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: I don’t consider YL mistakes to be fossilized cos they will prob correct those errors as they get older #eltchat
12:10 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @JoshSRound: @mmgrinberg very frustrating for learners if nothing can be done!! #ELTchat > or liberating.
12:11 pm Marisa_C: @michelleworgan There are mistakes (or errors as some would have them) which remain with one for good #eltchat
12:11 pm michelleworgan: @du_siemens My stds still make that mistake with “have” at high levels and they know how it should be #eltchat
12:11 pm JoeMcVeigh: @englishraven So what is diff between fossilization and typcial interlanguage errors? Or is fossilization a part of interlanguage? #ELTchat
12:11 pm englishraven: @michelleworgan That’s a very good point, because it leads to another question: What actually causes fossilization? #ELTChat (cause/cure)
12:11 pm stopspanglish: #ELTchat I have five posters with FOR TO blocked out by a NO circle; need reprinting every year, but they do work.
12:11 pm mattledding: Fossilized means that the mistake has been repeated until it sounds right to the learner. #ELTChat
12:11 pm barbsaka: @du_siemens did the poster approach correct the error? #eltchat
12:12 pm mmgrinberg: @JoshSRound I think something can be done #eltchat
12:12 pm Marisa_C: @barbsaka thanks Barbara – but I don’t actually agree that Ss always know they are making the mistake #ELTchat
12:12 pm AlexandraKouk: RT @Marisa_C: Please friends of #ELTchat do not post irrelevant updates to our topic during our chat
12:12 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @JoeMcVeigh @sandymillin Maybe they are just being creative. My native speaker TESOL students say “ginormous” ! #ELTchat > recursiON?
12:12 pm bcnpaul1: RT @michelleworgan don’t consider YL mistakes to be fossilized cos they will prob correct those errors as they get older #eltchat > Hope so
12:12 pm DRichW: #ELTCHAT Interesting to compare to ‘native’ errors – repetitons false starts etc. If they’re understood is it a problem?
12:12 pm englishraven: @JoeMcVeigh It would appear that fossilization IS a natural feature of interlanguage development, I think… #ELTChat
12:12 pm barbsaka: @Raquel_EFL Yes, that’s been part of the discussion as well, but the distinction between error and mistake was useful ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:12 pm barbsaka: @Marisa_C Yes, that’s been part of the discussion as well, but the distinction between error and mistake was useful ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:13 pm du_siemens: @barbsaka They didn’t work at first. After looking at the poster over and over again, they finally started saying “I am 25…” #ELTChat
12:13 pm Marisa_C: @DRichW I don’t think native speaker false starts and repetitions are an issue becos rule-governed in their untidiness #ELTCHAT
12:13 pm janetbianchini: Personally, I think close 1-1 intervention (if poss) can help a learner with foss errors #ELTChat
12:13 pm michelleworgan: I think most fossilized errors are due to L1 interference #eltchat
12:13 pm JoshSRound: RT @mattledding: Fossilized means mistake has been repeated until it sounds right to the learner. >>subconsciously know its wrong? #ELTchat
12:13 pm du_siemens: I think most fossilized errors are due to lack of correction, maybe? #ELTChat
12:13 pm juanalejandro82: #ELTChat the way I try to teach how not to make a mistake is writing down or saying something wrong, and elicit Ss to check it
12:13 pm JoeMcVeigh: RT @michelleworgan: I think most fossilized errors are due to L1 interference #eltchat >> Agree!
12:14 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @michelleworgan: I think most fossilized errors are due to L1 interference #eltchat > the connection between interlang and errors
12:14 pm NikkiFortova: RT @Marisa_C: @barbsaka thanks Barbara – but I don’t actually agree that Ss always know they are making the mistake #ELTchat
12:14 pm JoshSRound: RT @janetbianchini: I think close 1-1 intervention (if poss) can help a learner with foss errors >> agree, with persistent help #ELTchat
12:14 pm stopspanglish: #ELTChat – Coaches don’t consider running, body mistakes to be fossilized; everything’s fixable with enough patience and being careful.
12:14 pm du_siemens: @NikkiFortova … and I agree with you. #ELTChat
12:14 pm mmgrinberg: @michelleworgan Not all of them, that’s for sure #eltchat
12:14 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @michelleworgan: I think most fossilized errors are due to L1 interference #eltchat>the connection between interlang and errors #ELTChat
12:14 pm englishraven: @du_siemens Or… well, what causes other kinds of fossilization to occur? Lack of motion, basically! #ELTChat
12:14 pm bcnpaul1: isn’t it possible that fossilization is what moves the langauge towards a more international language? errors = quirks / evolution #eltchat
12:14 pm barbsaka: for my older students (60s) I notice that often the fossilized errors are actually the way they were taught Eng way back when #eltchat
12:14 pm janetbianchini: RT @du_siemens I think most fossilized errors are due to lack of correction, maybe? #ELTChat – I agree in some cases
12:14 pm michelleworgan: RT @bcnpaul1: isn’t it possible that fossilization is what moves the langauge towards a more international language? errors = quirks / evolution #eltchat
12:15 pm barbsaka: @bcnpaul1 Interesting thought, Paul #eltchat
12:15 pm Marisa_C: #ELTchat So some think they are duel to L1 interference others to lack of correction – #ELTchat could they also be a result of instruction?
12:15 pm englishraven: RT @barbsaka: for my older students (60s) I notice that often the fossilized errors are actually the way they were taught Eng way back when #eltchat
12:15 pm juanalejandro82: #ELTChat for example, the same third person singular mistake: he have. if no one notices it, I explain why we shouldn’t say “he have”
12:15 pm stopspanglish: #ELTChat – …does it help to think of the brain as another muscle that can be trained?
12:15 pm michelleworgan: RT @Marisa_C: #ELTchat So some think they are duel to L1 interference others to lack of correction – #ELTchat could they also be a result of instruction?
12:15 pm barbsaka: Point from @bcnpaul1 Do fossilized errors move us to international English? #eltchat
12:15 pm du_siemens: Well, if a student says something wrong and you correct them since the beginning, chances are this mistake will not be repeated. #ELTChat
12:15 pm juanalejandro82: Indeed! RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat – …does it help to think of the brain as another muscle that can be trained?
12:15 pm Raquel_EFL: @barbsaka ESSENTIAL distinction to be made: slip X error X mistake #eltchat ~~ doest it make sense?
12:15 pm englishraven: @barbsaka @Marisa_C You’ve both brought up a key point for us here, I think > The role of instruction in creating fossilization. #ELTChat
12:15 pm mmgrinberg: Fossilization happens when you realize that you can make a mistake and be understood and this occurs several times #eltchat
12:15 pm du_siemens: I’m not sure, though. #ELTChat
12:16 pm JoshSRound: RT @stopspanglish: Coaches dont consider running, body mistakes 2b fossilized; everythings fixable with patience and being careful. #ELTchat
12:16 pm michelleworgan: Possibly too much presentation rather than having stds work things out for themselves could be one reason? #eltchat
12:16 pm barbsaka: @Raquel_EFL No–could you explain a bit more? #eltchat
12:16 pm mattledding: #ELTChat some fossilized errors have to be corrected. Like how 60 year old Spanish s pronounced “Breakfast”. Not 4 polite company.
12:16 pm EnglAdvantage: @mmgrinberg: so is student motivation important? I know I am lazy with my Russian and make many errors that I really shouldn’t #eltchat
12:16 pm janetbianchini: Teaching beginner level soundly and accurately is absolutely vital – the key to their future is in your hands #ELTChat
12:16 pm Marisa_C: I have heard a lot of fossilized errors in teachers sometimes – inability to fix despite access to knowledge is quite worrying #ELTchat
12:17 pm englishraven: @michelleworgan Yes, I think a lack of noticing/discovery more problematic than not enough correction. #ELTChat
12:17 pm du_siemens: @michelleworgan I agree with this one. Creating student’s autonomy in a new language is the what we have to do, isn’t it? #ELTChat
12:17 pm stopspanglish: #ELTChat: My personal favourite: fossilized mistakes that aren’t mistakes – “that’s what they say in England/UK/(wherever YOU’RE not from)”
12:17 pm Marisa_C: And does not bode well about what we could fo for our learners #ELTchat
12:17 pm barbsaka: RT @Marisa_C: I have heard a lot of fossilized errors in teachers sometimes – inability to fix despite access to knowledge worrying #ELTchat
12:17 pm mattledding: RT @EnglAdvantage: RT @michelleworgan: I think most fossilized errors are due to L1 interference #eltchat > the connection between interlang and errors
12:17 pm tonnet: RT @barbsaka: Point from @bcnpaul1 Do fossilized errors move us to international English? #eltchat
12:17 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat Prevention is more significant than defossilization
12:17 pm englishraven: @Marisa_C Well, there’s the teacher’s use of the L2, but also the way they teach/deal with the L2 methodology-wise… #ELTChat
12:17 pm JoshSRound: @EnglAdvantage @mmgrinberg Same with my spanish – lazy as know I make persistent errors. Trbl is no-one ever corrects me #ELTchat
12:17 pm mmgrinberg: @EnglAdvantage It’s important to be willing to go beyond bare understanding #eltchat
12:18 pm bcnpaul1: my st says ‘I have 14 years’ it’s wrong but I get it so he’s communicated effectively. he spks eng. w/30 others who say the same.. #eltchat
12:18 pm stopspanglish: @mattledding : Or Spanish speakers saying “beach” or “sheet…” #ELTchat
12:18 pm juanalejandro82: #ELTChat offtopic: a friend of mine saying that doesn’t get anything I tweet: RT @misscolifata: @juanalejandro82 la Twitterclass es por ?
12:18 pm mattledding: RT @Marisa_C: I have heard a lot of fossilized errors in teachers sometimes – inability to fix despite access to knowledge is quite worrying #ELTchat
12:18 pm barbsaka: So “I have 20 years” is the Spanish variation of English, not an error? #eltchat
12:19 pm janetbianchini: Students love being corrected and they prefer teachers who correct over those who don’t (in my experience )#eltchat
12:19 pm JoHart: #ElTchat from non-EL but literacy specialist – you can’t correct everything you firefight/triage. Deal with what affects meaning most!
12:19 pm juanalejandro82: it’s an error, then a common mistake! RT @barbsaka: So “I have 20 years” is the Spanish variation of English, not an error? #eltchat
12:19 pm michelleworgan: It’s the whole accuracy vs fluency debate – which is more important? #eltchat
12:19 pm du_siemens: @barbsaka Nope. I think it’s an error and should be corrected, it doesn’t matter if they are able to communicate or not… #ELTChat
12:19 pm mmgrinberg: @Marisa_C We need to foster self-correction, I think #eltchat
12:19 pm JoshSRound: @bcnpaul1 we do become used to our ss errors and then accept them; what abt if ss travel to uk for e.g; then may have probs? #ELTchat
12:20 pm Marisa_C: RT @JoHart: #ElTchat from literacy specialist – you can’t correct everything you firefight/triage. Deal with what affects meaning most!
12:20 pm KarenInGreece: Does fossilization occur more in writing or speaking? #ELTChat
12:20 pm englishraven: Mmm, yes, are certain fossils more acceptable (less crucial to pounce on) than others? Intelligibility most important criteria? #ELTChat
12:20 pm mmgrinberg: RT @jacekbetleja: @mmgrinberg Yes i think its vital to make ss reflect & even play with their mistakes #eltchat don’t forget the hashtag
12:20 pm stopspanglish: #ELTChat This may be cruel, but sometimes all you can do is stick one eyebrow up and say “What? THAT’s NOT English.”
12:20 pm michelleworgan: Errors that impede or make communication difficult are the ones that should be worked on #eltchat
12:20 pm EnglAdvantage: I try to focus first on common and severe errors–impede understanding. Correcting every error all the time is demotivating #ELTChat
12:20 pm bcnpaul1: RT @barbsaka So “I have 20 years” is the Spanish variation of English, not an error? #eltchat > it’s an idea ๐Ÿ™‚
12:20 pm sandymillin: @JoshSRound Not only do we become used to them, but they creep into our own English – sometimes I’ve noticed I don’t use articles #ELTchat
12:20 pm barbsaka: Agreed @JoHart I never expect to effectively correct more than one error at a time #eltchat More than that becomes talking ‘about’ language
12:20 pm janetbianchini: RT @mmgrinberg @Marisa_C We need to foster self-correction, I think #eltchat – agreed! Much better for ss
12:20 pm Marisa_C: RT @michelleworgan: Errors that impede or make communication difficult are the ones that should be worked on #eltchat > agree but….
12:21 pm englishraven: RT @janetbianchini: RT @mmgrinberg @Marisa_C We need to foster self-correction, I think #eltchat – agreed! Much better for ss
12:21 pm JoshSRound: RT @michelleworgan: Errors that impede or make communication difficult are the ones that should be worked on #ELTchat
12:21 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @stopspanglish: #ELTChat > I sometimes pretend to weep.
12:21 pm michelleworgan: @bcnpaul1 Yes, everbody in a Romance language country understands the “I have 20 years” #eltchat
12:21 pm JoshSRound: @sandymillin Ha ha, yes, know what you mean ๐Ÿ™‚ #ELTchat
12:21 pm stopspanglish: @bcnpaul1 @barbsaka : It’s a mistake!! We can’t have adjectives. (Well, not in the non-Biblical sense, anyway.) #eltchat
12:21 pm englishraven: RT @dlmartino76: @englishraven it all depends on what ss r going to use the language for #ELTChat
12:21 pm Marisa_C: …There are jobs etc where full accuracy is a requirement – teachers, diplomats, negotiators, …#ELTchat
12:21 pm JoeMcVeigh: California study showed that professors often more disturbed by errors not impeding comm. E.g. article usage. Graded lower. #ELTchat
12:22 pm englishraven: RT @JoeMcVeigh: California study showed that professors often more disturbed by errors not impeding comm. E.g. article usage. Graded lower. #ELTchat
12:22 pm AlexandraKouk: self- and peer-correction when possible can be more effective that T-correction #ELTchat
12:22 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat Too often we take sts errors for granted hoping they’ll realize it. However, this is when errors become fossilized.
12:22 pm mattledding: RT @englishraven: @michelleworgan Yes, I think a lack of noticing/discovery more problematic than not enough correction. #ELTChat
12:22 pm michelleworgan: @Marisa_C Yes but I think it depends on the level – do u correct all elementary std’s mistakes? There are too many surely! #eltchat
12:22 pm barbsaka: So far what I hear is that fossilized errors are those that can be corrected in isolation but return persistently #eltchat
12:22 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat biological, social-affective, cultural, pedagogical, cognitive +environmental perspectives of a lang can lead to fossilized errors
12:22 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @stopspanglish: @EnglAdvantage I don’t blame you one bit!!! I might try that. #eltchat >if you ham it up it actually helps them remember
12:22 pm englishraven: @JoeMcVeigh Right. Articles take years to master, but are low-risk for effective communication. #ELTChat
12:22 pm BrunoELT: RT @michelleworgan: It’s the whole accuracy vs fluency debate – which is more important? #eltchat
12:23 pm KarenInGreece: Some of my sts seem to have fossilized on ‘must + to’, no matter how many times/ways I correct them/get them to self-correct #ELTchat
12:23 pm mmgrinberg: My idea is to record an intermediate speaker of their L1 and let them reflect on what they _felt_ #eltchat
12:23 pm Marisa_C: @michelleworgan No of course not – i just specified i think #eltchat
12:23 pm du_siemens: Ok. Much has been said about fossilized errors, but how can we deal with them in an effective way? #ELTChat
12:23 pm JoshSRound: @JoeMcVeigh because simple errors lower overall impression of someone? This is a prob for business ppl (perceived as such by them) #ELTchat
12:23 pm englishraven: Linear (or over-linear) modes of instruction increase the chance of fossilization, IMO #ELTChat
12:23 pm du_siemens: @KarenInGreece That’s a classic one. #ELTChat
12:23 pm michelleworgan: @Marisa_C Yes you did, I was talking generally ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:23 pm BrunoELT: @JoHart I believe you mispelt the hashtag: #ELTchat ?
12:24 pm mmgrinberg: RT @englishraven: Linear (or over-linear) modes of instruction increase the chance of fossilization, IMO #ELTChat
12:24 pm BrunoELT: RT @janetbianchini: Students love being corrected and they prefer teachers who correct over those who don’t (in my experience )#eltchat
12:24 pm JoHart: #ELTchat fossilized then perhaps from embedded 1st language structure – we have same with Indigenous languages
12:24 pm mattledding: RT @AlexandraKouk: self- and peer-correction when possible can be more effective that T-correction #ELTchat
12:24 pm Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: Linear (or over-linear) modes of instruction increase the chance of fossilization, IMO #ELTChat > recycling vital
12:24 pm juanalejandro82: #ELTChat once a student asked “why ‘am’ and not ‘have’ when referring to the age?” I said because we were old and we didn’t have a number
12:24 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @du_siemens: Ok. Much has been said about fossilized errors, but how can we deal with them in an effective way? #ELTChat
12:24 pm Marisa_C: RT @JoHart: #ELTchat fossilized then perhaps from embedded 1st language structure – we have same with Indigenous languages
12:24 pm michelleworgan: RT @Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: Linear (or over-linear) modes of instruction increase the chance of fossilization, IMO #ELTChat > recycling vital
12:24 pm mattledding: RT @Marisa_C: …There are jobs etc where full accuracy is a requirement – teachers, diplomats, negotiators, …#ELTchat
12:24 pm bcnpaul1: problem is when we spend so long listening to the errors we get used to them- we know what they mean but outside the c’room? #eltchat
12:24 pm jacekbetleja: #eltchat what about playing games with the mistajes
12:25 pm theteacherjames: RT @du_siemens: Ok. Much has been said about fossilized errors, but how can we deal with them in an effective way? #ELTChat
12:25 pm michelleworgan: RT @bcnpaul1: problem is when we spend so long listening to the errors we get used to them- we know what they mean but outside the c’room? #eltchat
12:25 pm stopspanglish: @englishraven : Ts also need to be taught HOW to correct & that correction doesn’t have to mean conflict. #eltchat
12:25 pm englishraven: @du_siemens To me, it’s key to work on conditions rather than just the errors. Constant noticing and motion are crucial. #ELTChat
12:25 pm barbsaka: What’s one technique you’ve used that successfuly worked with fossilized errors? #eltchat
12:25 pm mattledding: RT @Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: Linear (or over-linear) modes of instruction increase the chance of fossilization, IMO #ELTChat > recycling vital
12:25 pm englishraven: RT @barbsaka: What’s one technique you’ve used that successfuly worked with fossilized errors? #eltchat
12:25 pm du_siemens: @barbsaka Posters. #ELTChat
12:25 pm stopspanglish: @bcnpaul1 : “Whaaaaat? That’s not English. No one in the UK is going to understand what that means.” #eltchat
12:25 pm theteacherjames: RT @bcnpaul1: problem is when we spend so long listening to the errors we get used to them- we know what they mean but outside the c’room? #eltchat
12:25 pm mmgrinberg: RT @jacekbetleja: #eltchat what about playing games with the mistajes
12:25 pm barbsaka: @jacekbetleja What kinds of games? Can you give an example? #eltchat
12:25 pm Marisa_C: RT @jacekbetleja: #eltchat what about playing games with the mistajes > humour & tact important in error corre? (cont)ย http://deck.ly/~SEXtW
12:25 pm sandymillin: @barbsaka I’ve started to get SS to record themselves speaking – most of the time they don’t realise they’re making the mistake #eltchat
12:25 pm Raquel_EFL: @barbsaka yep! The division occurs at the level of the intention. #eltchat
12:25 pm michelleworgan: For some reason my RTs aren’t showing up #eltchat nevermind!
12:25 pm JoeMcVeigh: RT @dlmartino76: @JoeMcVeigh do we want accurate students or just fluent and communicative?? #ELTChat We want both !
12:26 pm sandymillin: @stopspanglish But then you might get reply “but I’m not in England” ๐Ÿ˜‰ #eltchat
12:26 pm barbsaka: @sandymillin Do they hear the error when listening to themselves? #eltchat
12:26 pm du_siemens: RT @englishraven: @du_siemens To me, it’s key to work on conditions rather than just the errors. Constant noticing and motion are crucial. #ELTChat
12:26 pm KarenInGreece: @du_siemens Do u think it’s that they’ve overgeneralised lang. patterns? And it doesn’t affect intelligibility so isn’t noticed? #ELTchat
12:26 pm EnglAdvantage: Focusing on one fossilized error at a time. Every time I hear it, I stop them and make them correct it.Eventually they self-correct #ELTChat
12:26 pm barbsaka: @Raquel_EFL Thanks! #eltchat
12:26 pm mmgrinberg: I suggest using a lot of delayed feedback when they have to self-correct. Do it often and bit by bit #eltchat
12:26 pm englishraven: @barbsaka Writing. Slows down + takes a snapshot of how learners really feel the language works. Better noticing opportunities. #ELTChat
12:26 pm michelleworgan: With stds I know well I give them a funny look and they know what I mean – we practised doing the same with each other – funny! #eltchat
12:26 pm sandymillin: @barbsaka About 50 / 50 – but good for back-up when I point out errors too – can’t say “I don’t say that!” ๐Ÿ˜‰ #eltchat
12:27 pm englishraven: RT @EnglAdvantage: Focusing on one fossilized error at a time. Every time I hear it, I stop them and make them correct it.Eventually they self-correct #ELTChat
12:27 pm janetbianchini: RT @barbsaka What’s one technique you’ve used that successfuly worked with fossilized errors? #eltchat – flashcards
12:27 pm Marisa_C: @barbsaka Good Question – if Ss hear the error themselves means they can monitor self > less chance of fossilization #eltchat
12:27 pm du_siemens: @KarenInGreece Nope… I think it takes a while until they understand it’s not “must to”, and “must + verb”… #ELTChat
12:27 pm JoeMcVeigh: First step is self-awareness or noticing. Can’t correct if unaware they are making it. #ELTchat Need to monitor.
12:27 pm yitzha_sarwono: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat Prevention is more significant than defossilization
12:27 pm AlexandraKouk: peer-correction often works – each S may make diff. fossilised errors #ELTchat
12:27 pm mmgrinberg: Paper whispers and ‘chats’ are useful #eltchat
12:27 pm juanalejandro82: @barbsaka checking mistakes in sentences! “I will to go to the beach” and they know that the preposition is wrong #ELTChat
12:27 pm sandymillin: RT @JoeMcVeigh: First step is self-awareness or noticing. Can’t correct if unaware they are making it. #ELTchat Need to monitor. <definitely
12:27 pm michelleworgan: However the problem doesn’t lie with on the spot correction – how can we get them to not keep making the same mistake? #eltchat
12:28 pm sandymillin: @michelleworgan Maybe get them to make one list of mistakes they hear corrected over and over again #eltchat
12:28 pm Marisa_C: Can we perhaps suggest some strategies and tips for dealing with errors that work for F-Zed errors? #ELTchat
12:28 pm englishraven: RT @AlexandraKouk: peer-correction often works #ELTchat > Agreed, but peer-work can add to fossilization as well!
12:28 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat to prevent foss. Errors we need to discover and clarify why and how those errors occur
12:28 pm theteacherjames: RT @englishraven: @barbsaka Writing. Slows down + takes a snapshot of how learners really feel the language works. Better noticing opportunities. #ELTChat
12:28 pm barbsaka: has anyone tried using a personalized “grammar diary” for students to list errors they want to fix? #eltchat
12:29 pm Marisa_C: For example, could we ask learners to keep a record of their own recurring errors? #ELTchat
12:29 pm bcnpaul1: focus on fossilized errors during correction slots at the end of an activity & get ’em to keep a fossil dictionary ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:29 pm Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: has anyone tried using a personalized “grammar diary” for students to list errors they want to fix? #eltchat
12:29 pm stopspanglish: @barbsaka : “I don’t understand what you’re saying.” (Even if I do.) #eltchat
12:29 pm du_siemens: Once when preparing for a Cambridge exam, I recorded my ss and showed them the tape script. They didn’t make those mistakes again. #ELTChat
12:29 pm janetbianchini: #ELTChat Self reflection, ss keep a list of their common errors (esp in writing), teacher gives spot dicatations/ peer dictations
12:29 pm michelleworgan: @bcnpaul1 My First Fossil Dictionary lol #eltchat
12:29 pm du_siemens: RT @Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: has anyone tried using a personalized “grammar diary” for students to list errors they want to fix? #eltchat
12:29 pm mmgrinberg: It’s very important to be able to control your own fluency vs accuracy. So, ask them to be more or *less* careful when speaking #eltchat
12:29 pm sandymillin: RT @Marisa_C: For example, could we ask learners to keep a record of their own recurring errors? #ELTchat <think it’s a good idea
12:29 pm mattledding: RT @englishraven: @barbsaka Writing. Slows down + takes a snapshot of how learners really feel the language works. Better noticing opportunities. #ELTChat
12:29 pm yitzha_sarwono: When discussing problems, I write the answers on board,that way we can analyze together on what went wrong together,it helps a lot #ELTchat
12:30 pm Marisa_C: @bcnpaul1 I like the term ‘fossil dictionary” #eltchat
12:30 pm JoHart: RT @Marisa_C: For example, could we ask learners to keep a record of their own recurring errors? #ELTchat
12:30 pm englishraven: Making written scripts of their own production is really helpful. #ELTChat
12:30 pm TESOLacademic: RT @barbsaka: So “I have 20 years” is the Spanish variation of English, not an error? #eltchat – maybe it depe? (cont)ย http://deck.ly/~cp65k
12:30 pm michelleworgan: RT @du_siemens: Once when preparing for a Cambridge exam, I recorded my ss and showed them the tape script. They didn’t make those mistakes again. #ELTChat
12:30 pm barbsaka: Love it! RT @michelleworgan: @bcnpaul1 My First Fossil Dictionary lol #eltchat
12:30 pm JoshSRound: @barbsaka an error diary sounds like a good idea; ss self-observing out of class & focusing on 1 or 2 persistent errors & report bk #ELTchat
12:30 pm janetbianchini: RT@bcnpaul1 focus on fossilized errors during correction slots at the end of an activity & get ’em to keep a fossil dictionary ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:30 pm michelleworgan: @du_siemens Great idea! Might try that one myself with FCE and CAE stds #eltchat
12:30 pm DaveDodgson: By @yearinthelifeof How I developed an academic vocabulary syllabus: This is the first of two p…http://bit.ly/g0Pskq #ELTchat
12:30 pm mmgrinberg: RT @englishraven: Making written scripts of their own production is really helpful. #ELTChat > maybe voice recordings?
12:30 pm Raquel_EFL: @barbsaka If the intention is not appropriate> mistake. If the action is not what was intended >slip. but how to measure it in lgg? #eltchat
12:30 pm mattledding: RT @mmgrinberg: I suggest using a lot of delayed feedback when they have to self-correct. Do it often and bit by bit #eltchat
12:30 pm mattledding: RT @michelleworgan: With stds I know well I give them a funny look and they know what I mean – we practised doing the same with each other – funny! #eltchat
12:31 pm rliberni: Hi all shelly & I are in Oxford off to ELTons later having signal problems! So can’t join #eltchat today enjoy :-))
12:31 pm JoHart: Asking them to notice own errors in audio recording of self has works with 1st lang oral comm for me #ELTchat
12:31 pm du_siemens: @michelleworgan I presented a workshop one year ago about this experiment. I’d be more than happy to share it with you. #ELTChat
12:31 pm Marisa_C: RT @mmgrinberg: RT @englishraven: Making written scripts of their own production is really helpful. #ELTChat > maybe voice recordings? >yes
12:31 pm mmgrinberg: RT @JoHart: Asking them to notice own errors in audio recording of self has works with 1st lang oral comm for me #ELTchat
12:31 pm stopspanglish: @sandymillin : “I don’t care if we’re not in England.” (then say something =ly incorrect in Spanish.) “Is that OK? Can I say that?” #eltchat
12:31 pm barbsaka: @rliberni We miss you but know you’re having fun. Lots of fingers crossed for you tonight! #eltchat
12:31 pm bcnpaul1: @michelleworgan lol #eltchat my favourite fossils (a picture dictionary of well-know errors)
12:32 pm du_siemens: @Marisa_C I have voice recordings and written scripts of my students… it is REALLY helpful. #ELTChat
12:32 pm janetbianchini: RT @Marisa_CFor example, could we ask learners to keep a record of their own recurring errors? #ELTchat – Great idea!
12:32 pm yitzha_sarwono: RT @englishraven: And work out what’s genuinely fossilized… If Ss can find a way to correct themselves, your corrections are wasting classroom air! #ELTChat
12:32 pm englishraven: This has also been really effective for my students:ย http://bit.ly/hItEbJ #ELTChat
12:32 pm mattledding: @englishraven #ELTCHAT I find that spoken English has dif. errors than written because of it being slowed down.
12:32 pm mattledding: RT @du_siemens: Once when preparing for a Cambridge exam, I recorded my ss and showed them the tape script. They didn’t make those mistakes again. #ELTChat
12:32 pm Marisa_C: @rliberni @ShellTerrell have a wonderful time and @heikephilp #eltchat
12:32 pm theteacherjames: @Marisa_C Keep a record – Definitely a good idea, but difficult for many Sts to maintain. Got to keep checking. #eltchat
12:33 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: This has also been really effective for my students:ย http://bit.ly/hItEbJ #ELTChat
12:33 pm sedayyildirim: @barbsaka after several corrections made both orally and written , I may consider the error to be fossilized #eltchat
12:33 pm Marisa_C: @theteacherjames I know its’ difficult but if you have a wiki, say and each student has a page it might work #eltchat
12:33 pm yitzha_sarwono: @JoshSRound @barbsaka yup Error diary might works! #ELTchat
12:33 pm mattledding: RT @mmgrinberg: RT @englishraven: Making written scripts of their own production is really helpful. #ELTChat > maybe voice recordings?
12:33 pm sandymillin: @sedayyildirim What would you do next then? #eltchat
12:33 pm yitzha_sarwono: RT @englishraven: This has also been really effective for my students:ย http://bit.ly/hItEbJ #ELTChat
12:34 pm yearinthelifeof: How I developed an academic vocabulary syllabus: This is the first of two posts describing th…http://bit.ly/g0Pskq #ELT #ELTchat #ESL
12:34 pm Marisa_C: RT @du_siemens: @Marisa_C I have voice recordings and written scripts of my students… it is REALLY helpful. #ELTChat
12:34 pm Marisa_C: @du_siemens I think a series or recordings over time can help a lot #ELTChat
12:34 pm bcnpaul1: RT @englishraven: This has also been really effective for my students:ย http://bit.ly/hItEbJ #ELTChat
12:34 pm englishraven: Over years, I’ve stopped a lot of direct 1-1 correction; gathered errors anonymously for ‘class errors’. Ss can see what’s theirs. #ELTChat
12:34 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat … We should not address the fossilized errors issue like that
12:34 pm barbsaka: I do think that students have to be invested in correcting the error. Can’t simply be teacher pointing out problem ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:35 pm theteacherjames: RT @englishraven: This has also been really effective for my students:ย http://bit.ly/hItEbJ #ELTChat
12:35 pm du_siemens: @Marisa_C Yeah. I have lots of them here… and it’s good for them to see how much progress they’re making. #ELTChat
12:35 pm michelleworgan: @du_siemens How do you write up the transcripts? By listening and typing? Must take a long time! #eltchat
12:35 pm englishraven: RT @barbsaka: I do think that students have to be invested in correcting the error. Can’t simply be teacher pointing out problem ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:35 pm mmgrinberg: What exactly do you feel when talking to someone who makes a lot of fossilized mistakes in yr lang? #eltchat
12:35 pm janetbianchini: RT @englishraven this has also been really effective for my students:ย http://bit.ly/hItEbJ #ELTChat – looks great Jason!
12:35 pm theteacherjames: @Marisa_C #eltchat Student motivation is, as always, key.
12:36 pm barbsaka: RT @JoshSRound: @englishraven agree, anonymous delayed feedback with class peer correcting, ss can recognise what is theirs #ELTchat
12:36 pm AlexandraKouk: sth like soundcloud helps a lot with oral records #ELTchat
12:36 pm du_siemens: @michelleworgan Well, it surely does… but it’s worthwhile, both for me and for my students. #ELTChat
12:37 pm EnglAdvantage: RT @JoshSRound: @englishraven agree, anonymous delayed feedback with class peer correcting, ss can recognise what is theirs #ELTchat
12:37 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat do you guys have the same feeling: adult learners like “to create” their own f-Ed errors so as not to get out of their comf zone?
12:37 pm englishraven: @theteacherjames Right, motivating Ss to really look at and experiment with their language is the key #ELTChat
12:37 pm sedayyildirim: However , I don’t give up making corrections even if the error is fossilized , there is hope ! #eltchat
12:37 pm mmgrinberg: Ask some students to be monitors and write down exactly what they hear #eltchat
12:37 pm englishraven: @BrunoELT Oh yes, I’ve noticed that too! #ELTChat
12:37 pm bcnpaul1: if you use sthg like voicethread they have access to their own spkg anywhere – hwk tasks cd be pick out yr gd bits & the ‘fossils’ #eltchat
12:37 pm janetbianchini: @mmgrinberg I feel as if they weren’t guided enough or corrected by whoever taught them #eltchat
12:37 pm mattledding: #ELTChat idea: ss -ss fos pairwk game: switch foss journal. try to get the other to get other to make error fr. foss journal for 1 point.
12:38 pm okamisensei: @JoshSRound True, but coaches also can’t make a little person dunk. Aptitude matters. #ELTchat
12:38 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat do you guys have the same feeling: adult learners like “to create” their own f-Ed errors so as not to get out of their comf zone?
12:38 pm englishraven: @bcnpaul1 Still think www.voxopop.com is better than Voicethread for ELT speaking work online… #ELTChat
12:38 pm rliberni: Thnx fir all ur best wishes shld be a good nite sitting shoulder 2 shoulder with the gr8 & good of ELT lol ๐Ÿ˜‰ #eltchat
12:38 pm KarenInGreece: I find using humor to point out common errors can help i.e. when sts tell me “I talk TO the phone” I act out talking to my phone. #ELTchat
12:38 pm juanalejandro82: RT @mmgrinberg: Ask some students to be monitors and write down exactly what they hear #eltchat
12:38 pm barbsaka: Actually, I’ve noticed that the “karaoke effect” really cuts down on errors #eltchat
12:38 pm mattledding: RT @englishraven: Over years, I’ve stopped a lot of direct 1-1 correction; gathered errors anonymously for ‘class errors’. Ss can see what’s theirs. #ELTChat
12:38 pm englishraven: RT @KarenInGreece: I find using humor to point out common errors can help i.e. when sts tell me “I talk TO the phone” I act out talking to my phone. #ELTchat
12:38 pm michelleworgan: @bcnpaul1 Great idea Paul! Will try it with voicethread or similar #eltchat
12:38 pm mmgrinberg: @janetbianchini What do you feel a speaker not teacher? #eltchat
12:38 pm du_siemens: Who uses IWB here? I have a presentation in the ActivPrimary software with my ss recordings and I’d willingly share with you guys. #ELTChat
12:39 pm barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:39 pm JoshSRound: RT @bcnpaul1: if use sth like voicethread ss access their own spkg anywhere – hw cd be pick out yr gd bits & the fossils>>nice idea #ELTchat
12:39 pm juanalejandro82: RT @barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:39 pm du_siemens: What’s a karaoke effect, @barbsaka? #ELTChat
12:39 pm Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:39 pm BrunoELT: RT @sedayyildirim: However , I don’t give up making corrections even if the error is fossilized , there is hope ! #eltchat
12:39 pm Marisa_C: RT @du_siemens: What’s a karaoke effect, @barbsaka? #ELTChat
12:39 pm englishraven: @KarenInGreece Absolutely. A fun/playful approach to error correction certainly goes down better (+ is more memorable?) #ELTChat
12:39 pm JoHart: @waykatewit @Marisa_C @barbsaka @BrunoELT @Marisa_C @mmgrinberg Thq #ELTchat tweeps for RTs/mentions & for not minding a non-EL prtcpnt
12:40 pm du_siemens: @Marisa_C They just can’t help some mistakes, even though they try their best not to make them… #ELTChat
12:40 pm theteacherjames: @englishraven #eltchat But we can definitely help by creating revision opportunities, whether the sts realise it or not.
12:40 pm JoshSRound: @rliberni all the best tonight! #ELTchat
12:40 pm stopspanglish: #eltchat – sorry, guys, have to head out. Class in 45 min. Been great chatting w/ all of you. Have a good one!
12:40 pm Marisa_C: I agree about positive attitudes to correction – we’ve talked about correction before and that came out very strongly #ELTchat
12:40 pm janetbianchini: @mmgrinberg I would not get into “teacher” mode with so I don’t know, but it depends on my relationship with that person #eltchat
12:40 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat > true!
12:40 pm okamisensei: RT @englishraven: Over years, I’ve stopped a lot of direct 1-1 correction; gathered errors anonymously for ‘class errors’. Ss can see what’s theirs. #ELTChat
12:40 pm bcnpaul1: @englishraven I haven’t really looked at voxopop – I’ll give it a try later. thnx for the tip #eltchat
12:40 pm mmgrinberg: What about asking the ss to actually make mistakes: not less than 10 a minute let’s say? Should help to master the acc/flcy control #eltchat
12:40 pm barbsaka: Karaoke effect–like singing in your shower vs singing with a karaoke mic in a bar. You’re more careful with an audience ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:41 pm Marisa_C: @JoHart Jo, your contributions are very interesting – keep talking ! #ELTchat
12:41 pm janetbianchini: RT@barbsaka If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat – yes!!
12:41 pm JoeMcVeigh: Fossilized errors sometimes respond to good old-fashioned drill work. Promotes self-awareness . . . eventually. #ELTchat
12:41 pm yitzha_sarwono: my students tend to speak slowly and clearly and carefully when they are of being recorded #ELTchat
12:41 pm barbsaka: Yes! RT @Marisa_C: @JoHart Jo, your contributions are very interesting – keep talking ! #ELTchat
12:41 pm du_siemens: @barbsaka Got it now. Thanks. #ELTChat
12:41 pm michelleworgan: I used this with adv stdsย http://youtu.be/P8gqhTlUnCg and we then spent the lesson making faces and eliciting self correction #eltchat
12:41 pm bcnpaul1: @du_siemens I use IWBs & I’d like to see yr pres. #eltchat
12:41 pm englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: I used this with adv stdsย http://youtu.be/P8gqhTlUnCg and we then spent the lesson making faces and eliciting self correction #eltchat
12:42 pm monalisa_eigo: Interesting! RT @barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy #eltchat
12:42 pm englishraven: RT @JoeMcVeigh: Fossilized errors sometimes respond to good old-fashioned drill work. Promotes self-awareness . . . eventually. #ELTchat
12:42 pm monalisa_eigo: RT @barbsaka: Karaoke effect–like singing in your shower vs singing with a karaoke mic in a bar. You’re more careful with an audience ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:42 pm du_siemens: @bcnpaul1 DM me with you e-mail address. #ELTChat
12:42 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat According to @thornburyscott “playing dumb” is a good way of dealing with f-Ed errorshttp://bit.ly/ifuiul
12:42 pm Raquel_EFL: Every class, I debrief my stds’s twibes posts w/ them. And their writing has improved a lot since then. #eltchat
12:42 pm Marisa_C: @du_siemens I will too ๐Ÿ™‚ #ELTChat
12:42 pm englishraven: @JoeMcVeigh I agree, Joe. There is definitely still a place for drills, if applied effectively at effective times. #ELTChat
12:42 pm JoshSRound: @JoeMcVeigh yes, that subconscious awareness has 2 become conscious, then can self-monitor better #ELTchat
12:42 pm Marisa_C: RT @Raquel_EFL: Every class, I debrief my stds’s twibes posts w/ them. And their writing has improved a lot since then. #eltchat
12:43 pm mmgrinberg: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat According to @thornburyscott “playing dumb” is a good way of dealing with f-Ed errorsย http://bit.ly/ifuiul > Agree
12:43 pm juanalejandro82: #ELTChat once I gave Ss score at the beginning of the class, and they had to keep it. it was fun, but not productive at all.
12:43 pm barbsaka: However, if students CAN correct themselves with an audience, but make the same mistake w/o, I wonder how important it is to them #eltchat
12:43 pm janetbianchini: #ELTchat I agree good old-fashioned drill work is very important especially at lower levels when ss begin to learn English – it does pay off
12:43 pm du_siemens: @Marisa_C Please. I’d be honoured… #ELTChat
12:43 pm barbsaka: @monalisa_eigo Hi! Glad to see you here tonight ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:43 pm JoshSRound: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat According to @thornburyscott “playing dumb” is a good way of dealing with f-Ed errorsย http://bit.ly/ifuiul #ELTchat
12:45 pm Marisa_C: @BrunoELT I think that’s a great idea for older learners perhaps? Not very young children? What do you think? #eltchat
12:45 pm mrsenorhill: RT @barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:45 pm JoHart: @barbsaka @Marisa_C #ELTchat – Thank you both – I am interested as much EL crosses into 1st lang lit & also speakers of pidgins/creoles
12:45 pm englishraven: @BrunoELT in EFL settings, I’ve found regular time for “usual suspects” (common error patterns based on L1 interference) work well. #ELTChat
12:45 pm du_siemens: @BrunoELT I mean, ss reporting their peer’s mistakes to the teacher. #ELTChat
12:45 pm theteacherjames: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat According to @thornburyscott “playing dumb” is a good way of dealing with f-Ed errorsย http://bit.ly/ifuiul
12:46 pm Marisa_C: @JoHart Ah another fascinating area – when does an error become pidginised? #ELTchat
12:46 pm juanalejandro82: @stopspanglish @mattledding @mattledding spanish speakers always say b***tch and they laugh because they know! #ELTChat
12:46 pm bcnpaul1: @du_siemens you need to be following me for me to DM you ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:46 pm mmgrinberg: @englishraven Yes to usual suspects. I do the same. #ELTchat
12:46 pm Eurominuteman: #eltchat @mattledding To my Thesis Inclusion, rhetoric propaganda does not remedy your lack of anti-thesis to Exclusion
12:46 pm BrunoELT: @Marisa_C agree Marisa. Perhaps YL are not mature enough to realize their peers errors #ELTchat
12:46 pm Marisa_C: RT @michelleworgan: Sometimes explaining the consequences of mistakes can make them more important to stds – #eltchat
12:47 pm englishraven: @Marisa_C @BrunoELT Actually, YLs can be surprisingly good with this. They’re often more perceptive/flexible than adults! #ELTChat
12:47 pm sandymillin: @BrunoELT But are YLs already making fossilized errors? Or just ones which might potentially fossilize? #ELTchat
12:47 pm michelleworgan: @BrunoELT Not sure about that, YLs often laugh when somebody makes a mistake… not a nice reaction but sometimes effective #eltchat
12:47 pm mmgrinberg: YLs do it when it becomes a game #ELTchat
12:47 pm janetbianchini: In speaking activities I get ss to act as teachers and note down errors 4 constructive f/back in their groups #ELTChat
12:47 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven Are they? Can they understand the concept of fossilization? that was my question not if they can spot errors #ELTChat
12:47 pm Marisa_C: RT @janetbianchini: In speaking activities I get ss to act as teachers and note down errors 4 constructive f/back in their groups #ELTChat
12:48 pm barbsaka: I think of YL errors are persistent, not fossilized :-0 #eltchat
12:48 pm englishraven: @Marisa_C Yes, that was the question I answered ๐Ÿ™‚ #ELTChat
12:48 pm Marisa_C: @janetbianchini Nice idea – assigning the mantle of the teacher to learners is a great idea #ELTChat
12:48 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven thanks #ELTChat
12:48 pm du_siemens: @Marisa_C Sometimes teachers don’t understand the concept of fossilization, let alone students… What do you think? #ELTChat
12:48 pm michelleworgan: RT @barbsaka: I think of YL errors are persistent, not fossilized :-0 #eltchat|me too – hopefully they can be remedied!
12:48 pm englishraven: @Marisa_C @barbsaka Remember we now have YLs at age 8 or 9 who have been learning English for 5-6 years… #ELTChat
12:49 pm BrunoELT: @michelleworgan it’s all abt the environment + the tone of the class we tchrs create. Laughing at ur own mistakes can work wonders #ELTchat
12:49 pm juanalejandro82: instead of saying “we’re going to the beach” a student ends up saying “we’re going to the brothel” got the joke? #ELTChat
12:49 pm bcnpaul1: #eltchat looks like our troll is paying a visit – maybe because he’s a fossilized error
12:49 pm AnfieldRoad2: RT @monalisa_eigo: Interesting! RT @barbsaka: If students are being recorded, or producing language to share, they become very careful with accuracy #eltchat
12:49 pm englishraven: RT @bcnpaul1: #eltchat looks like our troll is paying a visit – maybe because he’s a fossilized error > TWEET OF THE YEAR SO FAR!!!
12:49 pm janetbianchini: @Marisa_C Thanks – it’s imp though for groups to have good relationship with each other – great for IELTS speaking exam classes etc #eltchat
12:49 pm michelleworgan: RT @bcnpaul1: #eltchat looks like our troll is paying a visit – maybe because he’s a fossilized error|I always get spam during eltchat
12:49 pm KarenInGreece: RT @BrunoELT: @michelleworgan it’s all abt the environment + the tone of the class we tchrs create. Laughing at ur own mistakes can work wonders #ELTchat
12:49 pm barbsaka: @englishraven Still think of the errors are persistent rather than fossilized–maybe just optimistic? #eltchat
12:50 pm JoHart: @Marisa_C #ELTchat Weeell! good question! 2nd language for some of our Indigenous peoples is pidgin/creole & 3rd lang is English
12:50 pm michelleworgan: RT @englishraven: RT @bcnpaul1: #eltchat looks like our troll is paying a visit – maybe because he’s a fossilized error > TWEET OF THE YEAR SO FAR!!!
12:50 pm juanalejandro82: RT @barbsaka: @englishraven Still think of the errors are persistent rather than fossilized–maybe just optimistic? #eltchat
12:50 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven why have you not blocked him out of exisrtence i wonder…. #eltchat
12:50 pm Raquel_EFL: If the intention is not appropriate> mistake. If the action is not what was intended >slip. but how to measure it in language use? #eltchat
12:50 pm du_siemens: RT @BrunoELT: @michelleworgan it’s all abt the environment + the tone of the class we tchrs create. Laughing at ur own mistakes can work wonders #ELTchat
12:50 pm BrunoELT: No need to name! Just report the mistake. RT @du_siemens: @BrunoELT I mean, ss reporting their peer’s mistakes to the teacher. #ELTChat
12:51 pm Marisa_C: @bcnpaul1 that last tweet was for you ๐Ÿ˜€ #eltchat
12:51 pm du_siemens: @BrunoELT Ok… and I do that a lot. #ELTChat
12:51 pm barbsaka: @Raquel_EFL Nice distinction, but now sure how to measure (or if teachers would have time) #eltchat
12:51 pm BrunoELT: RT @englishraven: @BrunoELT in EFL settings, I’ve found time 4″usual suspects” (common error patterns based on L1 interference) #ELTChat
12:51 pm englishraven: @barbsaka I think 4-5 years constant English, + emerging cognition at 8-9, make many YLs more than capable of handling the idea. #ELTChat
12:51 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven he he good one – maybe because all he does is talk to himself and no one else? #eltchat
12:51 pm du_siemens: I sometimes copy my ss errors, change them a little bit and put them on the board so that nobody “knows” who said that… #ELTChat
12:52 pm Marisa_C: RT @du_siemens: I sometimes copy my ss errors, change them a little bit & put on the board so that nobody “knows” who said that… #ELTChat
12:52 pm EnglAdvantage: @Raquel_EFL Instinct, knowledge of students, guessing. #ELTChat
12:52 pm BrunoELT: Then it means you still care abt ur sts and dont want 2 embarrass them ?RT @du_siemens: @BrunoELT Ok… and I do that a lot. #ELTChat
12:52 pm barbsaka: @monalisa_eigo sounds interesting! don’t forget to add #eltchat to your tweets so everyone sees them ๐Ÿ™‚
12:52 pm du_siemens: @BrunoELT That’s definitely right. #ELTChat
12:53 pm englishraven: @barbsaka There are signs of fossilization starting to happen at those stages/ages, anyway (I reckon). #ELTChat
12:53 pm janetbianchini: Lesson idea – Play lots of Grammar auctions with pretend money – alerts ss to analyse common mistakes in a fun way! #eltchat
12:53 pm michelleworgan: Anyone got any links to more on this topic? #eltchat
12:53 pm AlexandraKouk: RT @janetbianchini: Lesson idea – Play lots of Grammar auctions with pretend money – alerts ss to analyse common mistakes in a fun way! #eltchat
12:53 pm englishraven: RT @du_siemens: I sometimes copy my ss errors, change them a little bit and put them on the board so that nobody “knows” who said that… #ELTChat
12:53 pm KarenInGreece: @du_siemens I do the same. Or I mention that it’s a common error in the class so they don’t start fingerpointing #ELTChat
12:53 pm CeciELT: Really sorry to have missed #ELTChat (and today’s topic), but have had fun lurking for the last 5 min – can’t wait to see the transcript.:-)
12:54 pm du_siemens: @janetbianchini I have a game here just like that, a game called “Auction Game” and I just change the grammar topic. #ELTChat
12:54 pm mmgrinberg: It’s important to be able to talk to a ‘fresh’ person who hasn’t got used to hearing yr fossils. Ideally she shouldn’t speak yr L1 #eltchat
12:54 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @EnglAdvantage @Raquel_EFL Instinct, knowledge of students, guessing. #ELTChat > yes… but it’s hard, agree?
12:54 pm barbsaka: @englishraven I agree–especially with students who spent time in ESL classes (survival). but, still optimistic! #eltchat
12:54 pm bcnpaul1: @Marisa_C @englishraven ๐Ÿ™‚ #eltchat
12:54 pm BrunoELT: @du_siemens you just got a new follower? let’s chat more after #ELTchat
12:54 pm du_siemens: RT @KarenInGreece: @du_siemens I do the same. Or I mention that it’s a common error in the class so they don’t start fingerpointing #ELTChat
12:54 pm janetbianchini: http://tinyurl.com/69thnnp #eltchat This looks great!
12:54 pm EnglAdvantage: @Raquel_EFL Definitely an art, not a science #ELTChat
12:54 pm du_siemens: @KarenInGreece Yeah, and they do enjoy this activity… #ELTChat
12:55 pm ethess: @janetbianchini : a good idea esp. after a test so u can deal with mistakes made without saying names #ELTChat
12:55 pm theteacherjames: @du_siemens I copy my ss errors, change them so that nobody “knows” who said that… #ELTChat – Me too, though difficult when teaching 121!
12:55 pm Raquel_EFL: rt @barbsaka @Raquel_EFL Nice distinction, but now sure how 2 measure (or if teachers would have time) #eltchat > agree! food 4 thought ๐Ÿ™‚
12:55 pm englishraven: “Sentence Navigator” – something I developed for YLs to do more noticing/experimenting with language patterns:ย http://bit.ly/dmQc6i #ELTChat
12:55 pm mrsenorhill: Sometimes I have students mimic different accents we find recordings of. Helps cut down on inhibitions that cause mistakes. #eltchat
12:56 pm du_siemens: @theteacherjames OMG! 121? You’re my hero… I already go mad with my 16. LOL. #ELTChat
12:56 pm JoshSRound: Have to go! Thanks everyone for another gr8 chat! Hope to make it for later one too #ELTchat
12:56 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat We all must agree that life is too short to aim perfection! Teach ur sts how to be critical and they themselves will realize error
12:56 pm okamisensei: RT @mrsenorhill: Sometimes I have students mimic different accents we find recordings of. Helps cut down on inhibitions that cause mistakes. #eltchat
12:56 pm AlexandraKouk: with YLs you can play games like snakes and errors, too #ELTchat
12:56 pm KarenInGreece: @du_siemens Also putting up good sentences helps.. and ask them to spot those with the errors.The cognitive investment is worth it #ELTChat
12:56 pm du_siemens: @BrunoELT Thank you, Bruno. I’ll follow you too. I guess we have lots of things to talk about… #ELTChat
12:56 pm mmgrinberg: RT @mrsenorhill: Sometimes I have students mimic different accents we find recordings of… #eltchat > including non-native accents ?
12:56 pm dish_chan: Interesting conversation going on at #Eltchat Especially for a teacher and a FL learner. d(???)!
12:56 pm janetbianchini: RT @englishraven “Sentence Navigator”developed 4 YLs 2 do more noticing/experimenting with language patterns:ย http://bit.ly/dmQc6i #ELTChat
12:56 pm englishraven: @barbsaka I’m optimistic about it too! I don’t see fossilization as a sort of massive failing, I guess… Sth to approach head on. #ELTChat
12:57 pm barbsaka: Don’t know if it’s been shared, but @kalinagoenglish had a good post about fossilized errors:http://bit.ly/fnbKCO #eltchat
12:57 pm englishraven: RT @barbsaka: Don’t know if it’s been shared, but @kalinagoenglish had a good post about fossilized errors:ย http://bit.ly/fnbKCO #eltchat
12:57 pm Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: Don’t know if it’s been shared, but @kalinagoenglish had a good post about fossilized errors:ย http://bit.ly/fnbKCO #eltchat
12:57 pm michelleworgan: Games are always good for revisiting common mistakes as it doesn’t seem like repeating the same language points over and over #eltchat
12:57 pm theteacherjames: @du_siemens #ELTChat hahaha, it’s more like one to one!
12:57 pm du_siemens: @KarenInGreece Yeah. I wish I could do it in every class, but I’m afraid it can be quite time-consuming sometimes… #ELTChat
12:57 pm englishraven: RT @janetbianchini:ย http://tinyurl.com/69thnnp #eltchat This looks great!
12:57 pm du_siemens: @theteacherjames Thank God we have people like you. LOL #ELTChat
12:58 pm barbsaka: @englishraven Totally agree–I just hate slapping the fossilized label on them. Sad to be labeled hopeless at 10 ๐Ÿ™ #eltchat
12:58 pm janetbianchini: RT @AlexandraKouk with YLs you can play games like snakes and errors, too #ELTchat – fab! Also adults enjoy playing snakes and ladders!!
12:58 pm barbsaka: @dish_chan Thanks for joining us #eltchat
12:58 pm BrunoELT: #eltchat @kalinagoenglish wrote an article about f-Ed errors:ย http://bit.ly/KYGaq
12:58 pm du_siemens: Guys, I have some games, activities here and I’d like to share with you… send your e-mail addresses to me. #ELTChat
12:58 pm Marisa_C: Well, as we are drawing to a close, when do f-ed errors become worrying? When there’s only 1 or 2 or when we are talking masses? #ELTchat
12:58 pm bcnpaul1: have to go – thx @marisa_c @englishraven @barbsaka for moderating another gr8 chat. See you at the later #eltchat i hope.
12:58 pm juanalejandro82: nice learning with you again… see you next wednesday! #ELTChat
12:58 pm theteacherjames: RT @barbsaka: Don’t know if it’s been shared, but @kalinagoenglish had a good post about fossilized errors:ย http://bit.ly/fnbKCO #eltchat
12:59 pm englishraven: @barbsaka Interesting point you raise there – the overwhelmingly negative connotations automatically associated with ‘fossilized’? #ELTChat
12:59 pm KarenInGreece: A fossilized error of my prof sts is 2 use ‘convenient’ 4 ‘comfortable’.Played O’s & X’s vocab game yest with these,think it helped #ELTChat
12:59 pm englishraven: @bcnpaul1 Bye Paul. Keep barefootin it! #ELTChat
12:59 pm mmgrinberg: @Marisa_C F-ed errors become worrying when they show lack of motivation and lack of general self-awareness. Do you agree? #ELTchat
1:00 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: “Sentence Navigator” – something I developed for YLs to do more noticing/experimenting with language patterns:ย http://bit.ly/dmQc6i #ELTChat
1:00 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat @kalinagoenglish wrote an article about f-Ed errors:ย http://bit.ly/KYGaq
1:00 pm Raquel_EFL: RT @Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: Don’t know if it’s been shared, but @kalinagoenglish had a good post about fossilized errors:ย http://bit.ly/fnbKCO #eltchat
1:00 pm du_siemens: I hate #ELTChat when it ends… ;(
1:00 pm mmgrinberg: RT @du_siemens: I hate #ELTChat when it ends… ;(
1:00 pm barbsaka: Some great ideas to try out with error correction! Be sure to report back if you try something and it works! #eltchat
1:00 pm janetbianchini: Thanks to all the lovely moderators + everyone for a fascinating #eltchat as always. I’ll be back tonight!!!
1:00 pm barbsaka: RT @du_siemens: I hate #ELTChat when it ends… ;(
1:01 pm englishraven: Well, end of chat session is upon us. Some really good ideas and resources shared. Thanks! #ELTChat

 

2 Responses

  1. […] This afternoon’sย #ELTchat was on a topic that I thought would be a difficult one to discuss. Before the chat began I tweeted that I wasn’t sure that I had much to say on the topic and would maybe just lurk in the background. Fortunately, everybody else’s comments inspired me and I managed to join in!ย You can now find the transcriptย here. […]

  2. […] Errors I really enjoyed yesterday’s #ELTchat on fossilized errors. The transcript is already up, and I was going through it to try to remember all the awesome ideas and interesting questions that […]

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